Karaoke Forums

As the dust seems to be billowing even higher from the actions of SC and Stellar, let's actually consider and dissect what they have done.

They sent out letters to business owners with the intention of INTIMIDATING them.  I admit I could be wrong in this regard because I have not seen the actual letter, but I doubt it.  If intimidation wasn't involved, the letter couldn't work!  
  a.  I assume that they did not specify, and why would they, that the statutes upon which the letter was based have never been litigated.
  b.  I assume that they did not specify that the statutes pertain to music digitally stored rather than simply reproduced by the computer?  The rig I created allows me to play cd's on my computer from an external cd drive.  While that setup is totally legal, I can see a show set up in this fashion losing work because of the unfounded but understandable concerns of the venue that received the letter in question.
  c.  I assume that many of the venues that received the letter have DJ's that also use computers.  How many DJ's are now facing problems in Phoenix because of the very same letter.  
  d.  I assume that some of the venues that received the letter have "one-man bands" that utilize hard drive musical accompaniments.  How many of those artists will lose work as well?

The fact (so I hear) that there are so many karaoke shows in Phoenix, is probably the reason Phoenix was targeted for this letter.  Did every venue in Phoenix that has karaoke receive the letter?  If not, doesn't that give an unfair competitive advantage to the venues that did not receive the letter?

Some folks, but not enough so far, are asking why would anyone continue to buy SC and Stellar products?   If everyone would just pay more than lip service to the fact that what these companies have done is unconscionable, it would contribute to righting this wrong.

Many people speak of SC as if it is the only choice if one wants to have a top show.  If you believe that, what would you do regarding your future purchases if SC goes out of business.  KJ's have survived without other good manus that are no longer around.  And many of you have already suggested alternatives that you are quite comfortable with!  

Is anyone interested in participating in an e-mail campaign we can initiate, directed at both SC and Stellar?  Of course, if we don't include our intimidating comments therein, such a campaign will only serve to tie up their staffs with reading them and, hopefully, with responding thereto.

You know how the word assume means "(@$%&#!)/u/me".  A letter of "cease and desist", which these letters are, is usually the first legal measure used in many cases.  It is a warning to those who are or may use illegal measures in their businesses.   There is absolutely nothing wrong with this "tactic", to protect one's business.  The manufacturers did not enact the Copyright Act but have to follow it just like everyone else.  BTW there is ongoing work to update the Copyrght Act, however due to many complications, including the International factor and they figure it will take about 10 years to get through the quagmire.  So in the meantime, stay within the law and don't worry.  Anyone who can't run their show because they think a disc may get damage should either withdraw that disc or get out of the business.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

Dont think it would do much good...

Yes, count me in.

Timberlea

I have only 2 comments left:
  a) if what SC and Stellar are doing is so correct, the entire industry would be involved with their efforts, including not only all Karaoke manufacturers, but the original publishers, EVEN MORE SO.
  b) I have well over 300 discs.  A disc that I purchased 5 years ago and hardly use just cracked.  It is costing me $9 to replace it.  Luckily, it's not one of my $25+ discs.  It so happens, that disc is not as yet on my hard drive.  Nuf said, IMHO!

I'm also of the opinion that these are scare tactics.  Just as in the Napster fights a few years back, they targeted 12 year olds and grandmothers on a small scale to strike fear into the hearts of the masses.  It's a deterrent.  There are people out there who won't risk their livelihoods over digitally reproduced music and go legit.  This is what SC and Stellar are hoping for, and they'll see an small increase in revenue for it.  Even if they only see an extra penny in profit, it's a good business decision on their part.

There are KJs everywhere.  There are four or five just in my (very small) town (in a three block square, and two or three waiting in the wings for a gig to open up.  Every town with a watering hole has some sort of karaoke show (generalization, but close to the truth).  I have been to shows where computers are used and I'll say I appreciate the convenience they offer.  A KJ can queue up a rotation, some filler music if need be, and his only actual work for the night might be in working the crowd over the mic.  

Bottom line is, there are way too many KJs out there for SC and Stellar to topple.  First line of business is to shut down karaoke sharing sites, and harddrive sales.  This is what's bringing the ire out in the manufacturers, not the KJs who buy a disc and copy it to their PC for convenience.  It's the insecurity of not being in control.  And without a clear picture in their minds on how to solve the problem, they go gestapo on the industry.  

Yeah, I'd like to see the $75 a night KJs with 50,000+ songs on a harddrive get trampled underfoot, but I've got a pretty good niche where I'm at.  

Without reservation I'll be honest ...

I'd be hard pressed to find every receipt for every disc I own, and doesn't that make me just as guilty in the eyes of the manufacturers as these harddrive using KJs?  Wouldn't it be the right thing for me to do one of the following:

1)  Quit the business
2)  Throw away each disc I cannot locate a receipt for
3)  Turn myself in and lay myself at the merciful feet of the manufacturers

I'm small time, in the overall scheme ... am I really worth the trouble, Mr. Sound Choice?

One other question I forgot raise in the original post.  Does anyone know if SC and/or Stellar took steps to determine that the venues they sent letters to had PC shows, that said shows use stored karaoke files, and that said files included their products?

I have read much discussion on not only this forum, but other forums as well.  Everyone is talking about these"letters" that have been sent.  I for one would like to "SEE" one of these letters.  Strange that everyone is talking about them yet no one as far as I know has posted one.  Maybe I've just missed it.

Kelly

Haven't seen one either.  Please, someone, post a copy for us!

QUOTE: "d.  I assume that some of the venues that received the letter have "one-man bands" that utilize hard drive musical accompaniments.  How many of those artists will lose work as well?"
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All the backing tracks I use are fully licenced for public performance.  The producers of these backing tracks are licenced to produce and sell them.  ie, they pay fees to the publishers either directly or via organisations such as ASCAP and MCPS.  All of these tracks are available as mp3 download. So, if a performing artist buys a backing track as an mp3 download (which is licenced), where do you think it gets downloaded to?  My guess it's a Hard Drive!  Therefore, the conclusion is that as long as those artists are using licenced backing tracks for their public performances, then none of them will lose work.  Furthermore, the bar/establishment owners also pay licence fees to cover public performances in their establishments, whether it be playing pre-recorded music or live music or karaoke... etc.   There are different ways that can be covered.. some pay a fee based on a live artist's list of songs performed, others may pay a fee based on a 'blanket cover' of songs.  Lately there has been increased popularity in the "I-Pod nights" where customers can bring in their own mp3 player and have their requested song played in the bar.  Now these customers don't have to have a licence to do this, but the establishment does.  Yes, as long as the establishment has a licence, then it's customers can publicly perform any music they bring with them on their I-Pods/mp3 players... Hmmmmmm as far as I know, they are hard disk drives with mp3 files on them!  

Now, in the case of Karaoke music... that requires a totally different licence as it also involves visual images (ie the lyrics). I know nothing about that as all the backing music I have is just that... music and no lyrics!  I really don't think that the music publishers (ie the writers/authors of music and lyrics) care how the LICENCED karaoke music is played, whether it be by hard drive or CD or minidisk or whatever.  They will get their royalties anyway.  It is the producer (ie the guy who records the backing/karaoke tracks) of the music who is concerned.  Now, if you had the permission of the producer to transfer your CD to a HDD, then all would be dandy huh? (Although personally I would also check with the publishers).   The problem you have with SC is that they WON'T give the permission to use THEIR CDs on a HDD.  So you cannot legally do it.  But SC does not have any jurisdiction on any other producers product!  If  Joe Blogs Karaoke creates and sells you a licenced CD and says it's ok to copy it to your HDD, for only you to perform at gigs, then SC can't do a thing about it.  Ok, if you haven't also obtained the permission from the publishers, then THEY could do something (highly unlikely), but SC can suck their thumb until they are blue in the face!

The visual images dont actually play a part in it.
Most Karaoke labels are independent & PPL do
not collect royalties on their behalf.

Murr

I don't think the law "against" format shifting is limited to karaoke music.  My point regarding those using backing tracks had nothing to do with the legality of doing so.  Rather, if I owned a venue that got the type of letter I believe was sent (and no one on this forum has seen it yet) out, if I understood what a hard drive is, I'd be concerned about having someone in my place entertaining with music that appears to come from a hard drive (though many performers have the music on discs).

I also made a related point regarding my Karaoke set up

Hello Testing 1 2 3.

Oh No...

I am invisable.

A hard drive is not that dissimar to your cd.
It contains plastic disks covered with a manetic coating.
It obviously spins a lot faster than the cd.
In essence, they are differant but very similar

QUOTE from Eric: "if I understood what a hard drive is, I'd be concerned about having someone in my place entertaining with music that appears to come from a hard drive"

Maybe it is time that we find out exactly what has been stated in one of the 'cease and desist' letters.  Then you could maybe counter with a standard letter to the bar owners pointing out that there is nothing illegal about playing music from a hard drive, as long as the bar has the appropriate public performance licence (which they should have if they have ANY music played in the bar).

Ok, Format shifting.

Data is stored on your karaoke CD or DVD as binary 1 0.
Data is stored  on your hard drive as binary 1 0.

Data is read of the karaoke disk by a Laser & photo diode (or similar).
Data is read off your hard drive by a head,
a bit like a tiny tape recorder head.

There has been no electronic format shifting.
If you transfer data from your CD to hard drive,
you are simply copying from a plastic disk
to a smaller plastic disk.
Ok the original format was not an mp3 file.
Since they do not like you making a CD backup of your original disk
it appears that format shifting is not the issue.

format shifting, unauthorized duplication... take your pick. If you don't have permission to do it, it's illegal.

FAIR USE says for home use, it's still illegal, but a non-prosecutable crime to put the tracks of audio or karaoke audio, movies, etc on your home computer. For non-commercial, they won't get their panties in a bunch.

For commercial use, they do!

We may not like it, but it IS the situation!

http://www.dogandponysound.com/C&D%20letter.doc

Dear _______

As a club owner who either has a karaoke system or employs a karaoke jockey (who has a karaoke system), we would like to take this opportunity to inform you that KAPA (an acronym for Karaoke Anti-Piracy Agency) and its members are stepping up efforts and activities to stop illegal playing of and dealing in karaoke sound recordings.  Our efforts will be directed to both criminal and civil sanctions provided by state and federal laws.  The civil sanctions consist of violations of the Copyright Law and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, both of which carry penalties of up to One Hundred Fifty Thousand Dollars ($150,000) per violation.  Additionally, criminal penalties of jail time and fines for intentional violations are possible.  As a club owner, you are responsible for any violations by karaoke jockeys who are playing illegal karaoke sound recordings at your club.  Please help us reduce illegal karaoke sound recordings by making certain that your establishment does not support or encourage the playing of illegal karaoke sound recordings by karaoke jockeys or unscrupulous club owners.

We have a toll free number 888-465-5200 as well as a web site (www.karaokeantipiracyagency.com) to provide you with more information.  Copies can be easily identified by the color of the CDG (a gold or silver CD Recordable Disk) with a paper label or no label.  In most cases, illegal CDG labels are of lesser graphic quality printed on home printers.  Original CDG labels are a 4-color paint process, similar to the silk screen process.  Original CDG’s carry the replication plant identification number near the hole of the disk, and carry a bar code holograph.  Illegal copies will carry a blue or green tint on the backside of the disk.

Yes this is an older letter by a group (started by Sound Choice originally after their SPIN venture went to Hell) that doesn't have any (by their own admission) legal ground to stand on - try reporting an illegal show to them, they either will take the info & say thanks or direct you to the individual manufacturers.  
This letter is over 5 years old.  It's an example but I doubt it is the actual letter that is supposedly going out today.

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One thing I dont understand is the following extract from Steller.

However we do not have the authority to grant anyone the right to do so. Most if not all of our karaoke products contain the copyrights owned by parties other than Stellar, namely the writers, authors and/or publishers of the work (song) itself to which we must seek prior approval for use in producing our final karaoke products.

In the UK, the PPL are the body who make sure that the artists and record companies get their just desrts.
They have introduced a £235 per year DJ licence so DJ's can use their laptops instead of hauling discs.
Monies go to who it should go to.
PPL say that karaoke is not under their jurisdiction.
Clearly, the people who Stellar claim wont allow Laptop use are under PPL.
Something is not making sence here.
Are Stellar to be believed...

Is there a related article somewhere that I can read about theseletters?? Is it on the SC site or on Steller or CNN or somewhere else, It all kinda sounds like rumour to me and I like to read the info from a reliable news source before I form an opinion.

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Will sing or fish for food!!I'm not quite right!!