Karaoke Forums

Very interisting indeed. I'm glad I kept all my disks.

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My first choice IS Sound Choice.

An employee of a company is an agent of the company and has a vested interest. You on the other hand have no vested interest. Even so using an amateur (an untrained employee) can cost alot in the long run (ie being sued for infringing and breaking laws). It's not Magnum PI folks.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

timberlea,

We appreciate your input. I will respond as "we" due to that our President, & Treasurer, want to thank you as well. I sit as Secretary of the company I work for.

We wanted to get an explaination & clarification of the BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONS CODE regarding what a licensed P.I. is in California. Refer to the link below:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displ ... =7520-7539

We consulted with our attorneys office today to get advise to see if we have broken any laws pertaining to sending information to Sound Choice regarding suspicious activities by KJ's and/or venues in our marketshare who may be using pirated SC karaoke songs in their commercial shows.

As we suspected, we have not broken any laws, nor has our company or any agents of our company acted as a Private Investigator. If anything we have acted as "Whistle Blowers".

Let us elaborate on what our attorney explained to us.

Unless SC, or anyone else for that matter, SPECIFICALLY HIRED US to go into an establishment to collect evidence for their legal use would require licensing from the state. Since we have not been compensated by SC, nor were we directed by SC, or anyone else, we ARE NOT acting as P.I.'s according the BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONS CODE's in the State Of California as linked above. We have gone in & observed karaoke shows voluntarily. It does not matter that we go into someones show & observe what is going on, without letting the KJ or Venue know what we are doing, & refer our observations to SC. Again if we were being compensated in any way by SC, or told by SC to specifically go in & aquire certain evidence for their use in a lawsuit, then that could be crossing the line unless we had a P.I. license.

With that said, SC would in fact have to hire a licensed P.I. to collect evidence to further any legal actions. Our observations are merely a lead & most likely, according to our attorney, would just be considered hearsay.

Furthermore, in our continued alliance with SC, we have agreed that licensed P.I.'s were to be used in the final investigation anyway before any lawsuits are filed in our area by SC. We appreciate you pointing out that just going into a venue deliberately observing an alleged pirate, to see if they might be using alleged pirated karaoke songs, & reporting it to SC, may be breaking the law. We did in fact listen timberlea, & decided to consult our attorney. Our attorney assures us that no laws were broken since we are not compensated. It makes no difference "why" we went in.

We are happy with our attorneys advise & that we have not broken the law. However, we understand that by just being a "Whistle Blower", can be close to crossing the line of P.I. work. Obviously, if anyone is looking into what your suspected local pirate may be up to, you may want to consult an attorney about the codes in your state to make sure you don't cross the line either.

Thanks again timberlea for pointing certain things out to us that urged us to seek the proper legal clarifications.

Not a problem "pirate".

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Damn, what brought THAT on? Did I miss something?

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My first choice IS Sound Choice.

I don't see anything wrong with reporting a suspected pirate to the proper
people, anymore that LAW ENFORCEMENT uses CI's to inform them of illegal activities.

It amazes me that someone from Canada knows so much about various
U.S. laws that vary from state to state, some laws are NOT universal.

While I WILL NOT join an organization like KIAA if I suspected someone of breaking
the law I probably would turn them in to the proper people just because.

People inform the Authorities all the time about different things and sometimes even get paid for doing so without having PI licenses (crime stoppers for one).

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I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet

In regards to the SC cases.. If you've ripped to mp3+g all your legal CDGs and are using them on your laptop --ARE YOU OK ??????

Can I take this one step further? So if I went into another venue in my area that I suspect is a pirate, go to the dj booth, sign up for a song to get a better look at his setup, see he has no discs and it on a laptop, know that the kj used to work for a known pirate. I go back to my seat wait for my name to be called, see the chartbuster splash screen then sing the song. Song over, go back to my seat and finish my drink and go home. Am I breaking any laws? I did call and report what i saw. And, by the way, I DO have a vested intrest since that KJ (possible but innocent till proven guilty) if guilt is taking business out of my hands.

BTW I never was paid to do this.

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Kurt Slep, Sound Choice's CEO, posted comments regarding this at the ODJT forum....

http://www.ourdjtalk.com/showthread.php ... post324010

Look to the 5th paragraph of his post beginning with, "We do not have the rights...." Also the following 6th paragraph elaborates further....

Here's the problem I have with your senario:

You would be reporting a person simply for the fact that he's running a laptop and has a Chartbuster song period.

Whether or not he previously worked for a pirate or not has nothing to do with his own operation which you have already assumed to be illegal. You have observed NOTHING except a person running karaoke with a laptop and a chartbuster song. Just because you didn't see discs on the premises doesn't mean that person doesn't own them... but to you it must.

You've already made the decision in your mind that this person is a pirate why? Because of their past? Because you think they have too many songs?

Should I (using that same logic) make the determination that because I've seen you with children that you are a possible child abuser or pedophile? Gee, let's arrest you based on the same "observation" and make you prove that you're innocent and in the meantime put your photo in the newspaper above a story of child abusers and see how that works out next time you want to coach a peewee baseball team.

Simple observation isn't enough. Charging or accusing someone of a crime with no solid evidence sounds a little bit wrong doesn't it?

Isn't that what SC are doing now; issue an intend to sue, and then the suspect KJ will have to proof his innocent by letting them have a look at his songs collection. Only in the auditing HD/CD collection can a kj ce proof to be a pirate.

Can a PI tell from just being in the premise/bar that a KJ is a pirate? What is he looking for? Does the music from a legit rip sound different from those downloaded? Does a legit rip have a kind of special watermark that only SC rep can see? All the PI can do is note the songs being played and assume that those songs are from illegal source.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Wow, so now pirate-spotters are being equated to pedophiles? Nice.

It's not that difficult to spot a "suspected" pirate. Say I go into a local bar for karaoke. I see a KJ that I've never heard of before;
- the show is on computer with no discs;
- the KJ has little idea of how to bring up songs, mix correctly or talk on the mics;
- the songbook has 100,000+ songs, or the KJ announces he has every song so he doesn't need a songbook;
- the KJ's company has other rigs and hosts, all with the same massive song selection;
- he charges a very low amount for a show;
- he can even sell me a loaded hard drive for cheap.

Well, I suspect the KJ is a pirate. Can I prove it? No, and it's not my job to prove it. But can I suspect it? Heck yes.

I can find out all of this by using my eyeballs and asking a few simple questions, usually directly from the KJ. In fact, the above scenario is true and has happened more than once to me personally.

We seem to be having a weird "debate" on whether any KJ should ever be suspected of, oh my goodness, ripping off a corporation, and whether anyone who suspects a pirate is somehow as bad or even worse than the original offender.

I say let the courts sort it out. Any KJs who are incorrectly sued and cleared will have a golden opportunity to counter-sue the manufacturer, and probably will obtain enough in damage awards that they'll never have to KJ again.

Okay, what you've described above is a little "more" than just "an observation." Don't you think? (analyze his hosting/computer skills, lack of songbooks, charges very little etc....

If you came into my show, you'd see a computer and karaoke songs as well as a fairly large library.. No, I don't have 100,000 tracks and I probably wouldn't tell you how many I do have, and I don't use books either.

If you asked me what I charge, I'd tell you it's none of your business.

If you asked me where my discs are, I'd ask you; "Why? Are you planning on stealing them?" Of course, the whole idea of using a computer is so you don't have to schlep the discs around.

Whether or not I was a pirate, why would I offer to sell you a drive? So you could compete with me?

Whether or not I can operate a computer to your liking, or have the hosting skills you think are up to snuff is simply your subjective opinion.

And I'm sure that this would be plenty enough for you to say; "sue 'em, let God sort 'em out." simply because you didn't get every answer you feel you deserved to at the time. When in fact, how much I charge and where my discs are really is none of your business.

Are we equating pirate-spotters as pedophiles? Absolutely not... but seems like you don't have a problem jumping to the conclusion that anyone using a computer is a pirate either.

Must really be some kind of shakeup going on in Raleigh. I've also been contacted by several venues. By the time the smoke clears, there'll only be a handfull of karaoke operators left. Hopefuly only the good ones.

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My first choice IS Sound Choice.

If you are in an area any length of time word gets around as to how people got their music--and it isn't necessarily heresay gossip but straight from the pirate's mouth. Pirating has gone on so long that people think it is OK and any one who doesn't do it is a sucker. Just as Karaoke Jerry was offered a hard drive, we have had hosts try to get us to join their download club and they don't believe it when we tell them it's illegal. Pirates will often talk or brag freely about how much music they have and how cheaply they got it....until lately...... but I'm betting that sending in the people to observe the hosts in action is really step two in this process and not just an initial fishing expedition.

C.Staley, I do NOT believe every KJ using a computer is a pirate.
But I do believe that someone with a background in karaoke can clearly see odd things right in front of them, and even ask a few questions, to then form a reasonable suspicion that something funny might be going on.
As far as the information I described above, some pirates here openly bragged about their business and tried to recruit legit KJs into it.

Two years ago, most of the local KJs knew each other (or at least, of each other). Then new KJs with 100,000+ hard drives started to flood the area. I believe a ring is producing and distributing the hard drives.

Skid, I have gotten contacts, too. And questions from longtime singers who attend a variety of shows. They know something is up.

Fair enough.

However, I really don't believe that many club owners will be willing to pay MORE just because pirates have been run out of town. They've been trained by YEARS of KJ's (pirate or not) that they can get karaoke for less and less. The famous "introductory offer" usually never gets increased for one reason or another. I believe that more and more club owners will simply dispense with karaoke altogether as something that would be more trouble than it's worth. Sure, there will be fewer gigs around and more of the remaining KJ's to compete over them and the price roller coaster will simply continue (albeit on a smaller scale).

When I first started in this business, there were only 40 or so DK discs and a night of karaoke costs a club upwards of $300. It's never going to get even close to that again even if you draw and quarter every pirate you can get your hands on. Because they'll simply multiply.... like the cockroaches they are.

I'm not trying to be "gloom and doom" here, but I don't know what kind of long-lasting effect that us legal KJ's will see from this.

Church bells will not ring, the chamber of commerce will not be giving awards (in fact their opinion of karaoke will decline again), Singers wil not flock to the few shows in town, and the bar owners that no longer have karaoke will not be begging for a host. Private parties will increase and people will get in the habit of singing at home after all our effort to get them going out again.

I havnt done bars on a regular basis now and there are a few looking for hosts. I will not get hired because I am over qualified and cost too much. This is what I am experirencing now

I really dont know what the economy is in your area but here is above the national average and there are bars after 30-40 years are about ready to close the doors. I know of a few that are paying BMI & ASCAP about $1000 apiece and cant afford quality entertainment. THEY ARE CUTTING CORNERS ON EVERY FACET OF THEIR BUSINESS. They are in dire straits!!!

A few years ago karaoke in this area was at an all time low. I look for it to die all together and public karaoke will be very rare. Dart leagues, poll leagues and poker will be the mainstay.

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C.Staley, you may be correct, that eliminating the pirates will not raise prices or increase opportunities for legit KJs.
But the alternative - of continuing to ignore the pirates - will surely continue to lower prices and reduce opportunities for legit KJs.

This about 4 years ago coupled with a marketing structure that would have given the advantage to the honest established hosts would have worked. Now I just regard it as a campaign to capture some of the monies lost due to a failure to adapt and work with those busting their asses promoting their product.

I did not cause the current situation and I will no longer incur financial losses or put myself in jeopardy from lawsuits. I will not contract out to public karaoke. DJ maybe karaoke no..

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