Karaoke Forums

I don't really see the controversy here. Timberlea and Murlynn are right. All of you should read the entire site www.karaokeantipiracyagency.com as it will answer many of your questions.

Sure I like HD's too, but they are illegal. Under DMCA any copying for commercial purposes is illegal whether HD or CD.

As I understand it, (and we talked about this in another thread - and yes I believe there was a copy of the cease and desist letter there), SC and Star are 'required' to pursue and try and eliminate piracy for a number of reasons including 1) to protect the karaoke industry from bankruptcy / loss of profits; 2) To protect the original authors who signed agreements for  1 copy per legitimate original cd - and didn't provide permission for HD use or copied CD use; 3) To try and exercise some control over the use of their media in the industry.

Those of you KJ's in the industry with all original CD's have an investment. Those with 50K copied disks off Ebay do not. They compete with you unfairly causing you to lose gigs, and have to accept lower wages. They also basically force you to adopt their tactics or go out of business. This is another reason the music industry (SC and Star, etc) are trying to stop it.

If you have a 1:1 rig then true, you bought your cd's and you have a right to use them. You still don't have a right to transfer to HD. That is a violation of DMCA, and probably the contracts that Star and SC have with the artists. That's why it's not really any less bad. Well, I think it is a lesser evil, but still wrong nonetheless if we are honest about it.

Here in Austin, I think almost every KJ uses a HD. Some have all the disks or a number of them. Some do not.

So, no it doesn't seem their tactics are soooo wrong after all. They are doing what they can, and they have a legitimate business right to do it - therefore by definition it is fair. Now, it may not be that kosher with their customers - that's another story.

I'm not sure how many tracks are actually truly legal by the artists for download as MP3+G. The site above mentioned at the time - none were. I notice that Zoom or some of those other manu's are located in the UK and other places outside the US. That is probably how they get around the US system. IMO this likely doesn't make it legal to own in the US. Well, I suppose it may if that is how it is licensed to be distributed by the artists themselves, and as long as it isn't copied. However I see why artists and manu's don't want them on HD's or MP3's - it's because they can be copied and distributed so easily. They are opening a can of worms if they allow it. That said, it is a wave of the future and they all will have to support some similar type of distribution soon - like ITunes, Yahoo Music, Rhapsody, Napster. Problem is I don't think the licenses are set up that way in the US yet.

So, anyway I'd say Knightshow is right. Your choices are to either quit, or continue to pirate and live with anxiety and possible risk of civil / criminal prosecution eventually - behind the next turn perhaps, or you just go clean and only go with legit purchased original disks, and no computer hd system until the manu's set them up with proper licensing.

For those of you with extensive disk collections already this is really a great business opportunity for you. If you retaliate and report pirates and eventually get them eliminated then you will have more demand for your shows, and can command higher wages. That is a winning situation for you. The site mentions most states and jurisdictions support legal suits filed based on unfair competition due to piracy. You can actually probably sue a lot of the illegal KJ's / bars yourself - claiming lost wages  and well...some of you might be able to retire then.

Just my  :2cents:

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The Truth Is Out There

This is a fact since even SC has stated any recorded performance that is made available for the public is technically illegal - for profit or not, it is still public performance & recorded illegally.  RIAA is starting to nail the YouTube karaoke performances for the people just having fun & posting their own personal performances.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

so what's your definition of "licensed" vs unlicensed?

I was a KJ that had a substantial investment, and had gone to computer. ONLY with the tracks I own. Your earlier post about merely producing the cdgs if you get busted at a show is wrong. Per the law, and SC and Stellar's stance, they are making NO differences between those that are doing multirigs or selling hard drives, and those that are merely converting to computer. You'd produce the cdgs and they'd say "That's nice." and STILL put the shackles on you!

so your point of "it seems to me that those who have a problem with SC and Stellar's stand are those who are running shows with unlicensed tracks" is wrong, IF I've interpreted your version of what is licensed...

No. We havnt got round anything.
Zoom's stance is just one up for progress.
Still dont make it legal.

Knightshow, am I correct in understanding that you have an investment in CDGs which you were using in your show and then you copied those CDGs onto your hard drive?  If so, did you obtain permission to do so from the producer of the CDGs (eg SC or Stellar) AND from the publisher (ie the copywrite owner - author) of the music/lyrics?  If you did obtain their permission, they would have given you a written licence.  If you did not obtain their permission then you don't have a licence.

So, if someone has obtained permission from both producer AND publisher to copy their licenced disks onto HDD for use in their shows, then they obviously would have nothing to worry about, they would have a written licence which they could show to the bar/establishment owner, so they would not lose out on the gig due to the owners fears of being prosecuted.  Also, if they are using a pre-loaded HDD which is loaded with ONLY licenced tracks, then the same would be true.  

It is obvious from what SC and Stellar have said in their letters that NONE of their tracks have been licenced for use on HDD, so, anyone who has them on a HDD and is using them in this way commercially, is running the risk of prosecution.  The only hope they would have is that SC and Stellar would take a sympathetic approach if they can show they have purchased the original disks.  Of course, that decision would be entirely up to those companies and the KJ would be operating in this manner entirely at their own risk, and also risking the bar owner's business.  Any prudent bar owner, after having seen the SC/Stellar letter would ask to see the KJ's licence to know that the KJ  is using a HDD legally.

Eric, follow these links to the documents you need to read:

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/k-star/S ... ecords.pdf

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/k-star/SoundChoice.pdf

http://www.karaokeantipiracyagency.com/faq.html

http://www.karaokeantipiracyagency.com/info-law.html

This is sad if true. No doubt the industry needs to come up to speed and not be so far behind the technology curve. I think most singers / karaoke track performers would be willing to pay a reasonable price (in relation to the price of the track for non-public use) in order to be able to post a song. However I don't think that option is currently available from the manu's. Maybe it could be purchased - not sure, but my guess is it is way to expensive for just doing something for fun and sharing with others.

I think for tracks to be allowed license of hd use their would have to be some type of encryption employed - perhaps similar to subscription download music services that would prevent use of the file even if copied. Perhaps it would require a connect to the internet every 24 hours or so to verify license and allow the songs to play. I believe most MP3 subscription content players will prevent the playing of the content after download when a certain period of time passes. The will require you to connect and synchronize with their database in or to use the tracks.  That said, there is always someone trying to break such security schemes. I already know of a Russian company that is able to defeat the encryption I just described. However most people are unaware of such tech so it would probably still work for public deployment. They should use a security scheme that is customizable and changeable on the server so that even if the code is broken they can somehow override.... Anyway, that is how I can see hd use eventually happening legally.

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The Truth Is Out There

Yes, there is a well known ripper for Napster downloads.

Everything appears geared towards the poor artists and manu's.
There is so much money in the music industry that they
get upset over loosing a penny.
Poor Elton John... He may have lost a million through illegal copies.
This is by way of example. I like Elton John.

Do you not think that somewhere along the line
GREED comes into play.

I would think that would fall into a diffeent catagory-not just format shifting or simply public performance--but actual REBROADCASTING of said copyrighted music.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

It is 100% illegal though.
I am gratefull some things arnt policed.

Here is one of the articles.

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/RIAA-going ... rmers.html

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Taken from the above link.

This is quite simple.  Violation of the Copyright Act is a federal offence and comes under the purvue of the FBI.  Will they just willy-nilly just come into a show?  I highly doubt it.  However if you called your local office with a compaint, they will most likely action it.  Now when they do, and enter a bar (considered a public place) and see a harddrive or copies being used without authourization, then they can, without warrant arrest the host and seize the harddrive and/or copies as evidence.

The problem in the past from what I can see is the manus were going through civil court instead of criminal court.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Lonman or Planet Bill,
Which ever of you wrote about encoding. Your right!  There will be no licensing of downloaded kakaoke until the publishers have figured out wether the DRM encoding for audio files works. It will also be downloaded in an ACC format or WMA file because you cannot encode an mp-3 file. It's nice to see that between lonman,planetbill, tom, murrlyn, knihtshow, and even jerry that took the time to lookup some copyright law , that there are some reasonable discusions on the topic.
Oh, that would be why at this time there would be no licensing for hard drives or downloads in an mp-3 format. For those of you that keep refering to Chartbusters , you should go to their website and read the terms of use. They specifically state that any copy of their downloads is restrcted to ( 1 ) and any form of coping is illegal and cannot be used for commercial use. Gives one wonder as to how cavs explains that one.

OK, I think we have to look at this in a LARGER PICTURE, but before that, I have no problme with any karqaoke manu that goes after a person that is pirating music, or multirigging.

Now for the BIGGER picture.....

1. For a person doing a 1:1 copy of karaoke track to transfer to hard drive.....
The manu will have to prove damages in order to sue a KJ.  What are the damages?  The KJ legally purchased a disc, the manu got thier $$$$.

2. What about the "REAL" record companies (sony, alantic, bmg, ect.....) going after the digital DJ?  Wouldn't that be a big easy target?  Anyone know of any DJs being sued, or venues being sued for format shifitng of ORIGIANL music on a 1:1 ratio?

Well, I haven't heard of any.... but then, before Napster/Grokster was sued, I hadn't heard of those type of file P2P sites being sued before?  Seems to me that just because I haven't heard of it, doesn't make it a prerequisite that it's not going to happen!

Uh, no.

They don't have to prove anything. All they have to do is show that you have reproduction of their trademark and their copyright... no loss is needed for a lawsuit.

Timerlea, forgot about you, yours always a pillar of truth. And he's right some of you aren't taking in the difference between criminal and civil complants.In a criminal complaint. You fill out the complaint form with the US Attoney's office and sooner or later they will check it out. If they come into the bar while a kj is working with a hard drive all they have to do is confiscate it and press charges against both of you.
SC doesn't even have to be there. The US government will prosecute. Fines for willfull copyright infrigement are now: as the law reads: up to $250,000 fine and up to 6 months in jail ( per occurance ). The other way a kj could get sued for damages would be if the bar had to pay fines, lost their liquer license or business licence for 30,60 or how ever long a judge deterimed. And then came after you for those damages.  If I was SC or Stellar  I would first send a cease and desist letter, If that had no impact I would send a second letter letting the bar know I was filing complaints with 1. US attorney's office 2, State DA's office for criminal charges.  3 & 4 with the state liqueur licensing  and business licensing asking to have the business and liqueur license revolked for the wilfull use of contraband on their premises. All things that are possible for copyright violation. Good Thing I'm not the one making the decisions--huh

it just saddens me to think that our gov. has nothing better r more important to do than go in karaoke bars and put u bad bad people behind bars.....i have traveled over alotta states and pretty much asked all the kjs, if anyone has ever came in to check to see if they're legal....not 1 has ever seen one...altho thru rumor quite a few have heard about them.....

now i'm not saying they're not out there wasting good dollars, better spent on controlling drugs, r pretty much anything else....

it could be like here every now and then they set a cop car on the side of the road, everyone slows down, but there's never anyone in the car....

is there reallyyyyyyyy anyone out there checking? and if so what is the size of this force?  alottaaaaaa bars to cover... JUST A THOUGHT

Famous last words mate.