Karaoke Forums

GOod point about sacrificial lambs Flipper, I was thinking that same thing. As far as I'm concerned the KJs to take the fall pretty much represent my interests in this and I will be glad to send money to help them out with legal fees. I don't have much to send but I am still willing. If I was pro it could be me in their spot instead of them.

It's the question on WHO to trust anymore.  Of course the manus are going to tell you they run 100% legit.
Someone on the SC board said they talked to rep at Chartbuster last year & claimed they stated they are 100% legit - well duh!  They aren't going to tell someone they don't know over the phone when asked if they are legal - "Well no we aren't 100% legal, we make songs without permission"!  LOL.  Chartbuster is/was involved in a large lawsuit against them last year for producing tracks they had no license for - can't fint the link right now.  PHM has always stated they are completely legit & are being sued by a couple major label record companies.
http://www.nashvillepost.com/documents/ ... ct2006.pdf
THM produces alot of stuff that other manus can't seem to get the rights to???
Music Maestro is out of business for producing tracks without licensing & they were one of the pioneers of karaoke tracks as well - back into tape days.
SOund Choice has been guilty of this in the past & probably will be again at some point....

So who are you going to believe.  I'd like to believe CAVS, but the tracks they license seem to have ghosts in their legality history as well, Music Maestro, Chartbuster (not sure if they use them or not), DK (another out of bus company), among the other low grade quality companies they use.

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This is all about the all mighty dollar. I think we all agree about that. It just seems odd to me they would want to put people out of business that would be buying their product. I think the sensable answer is they are going to target KJs that are getting their stuff free and never paying a dime on a CDG. Why would they go after us when we spend money on their products continuously.

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I agree lonnie it's really tough to figure out who you can believe. It's like I told the Cavs guy, all I want to do is make sure I'm doing the right thing from a legal standpoint, but it appears that the right thing is really hard to get a handle on.

I chose to format shift to protect my investment and have more convenience. From a moral standpoint going digital and owning the orgininals was a choice I made and I believe it was a sound decision. I did not plan on my investment in CDG's would now be in question, never gave it a thought...just assumed they were legal.

All I can say is there is alot of money at stake here and the deep pockets are gonna get hit first. It will be interesting to see what comes of this.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

I agree with you Bab's it just does not make sense.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Hi Flipper  :wave:
There is a lot of good info here, but I really think time will tell. We have had these discussions before and it never seems to get as bad as we think. They may target a few KJs as an example, but I think for the most part we are safe.

The main problem like Flipper said we'd like to all be as legit as possible, but since the industry hasn't caught up with technology it makes it hard. It isn't clear by any one standard what is considered legal. That some day will be hashed out in the courts definitively, but until then we are all just guessing. And after that happens, will they be able to police all of us? The law suits that have been going on haven't directly affected us as of yet. Except  for maybe making some songs unavailable because of copy right laws. I can't imagine how in 2007 they can make something new happen over night.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Hey Babs

You are probably right. Enforcing is an enormous task and the industry is so big that it will take a long time for it to reach our level.

My opinion is that to make this work they will have to start at the top of the food chain and work down to the end user.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

I'll admit it - I'm a bottom feeder.  LMAO

If they do have a problem with my setup they wouldn't get much out of closing me down. They would loose more in revenue than what my poor measly bank account has in it.  LMAO

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

THat's the biggest thing in the end, if they shut the people that legally purchase the original media & transfer to computer down, they are NOW taking legitimate money out of their own pocket!  The laws are changing in the regular side of music to allow digital downloads, digital jukebox with download ability - all licensed, karaoke HAS to be next on the list.

The only thing that is making me wonder right now, is WHY isn't this 'statement' provided on any offical Sound Choice or Pop Hits Monthly site - but only on ONE internet karaoke site only?  OUT OF CURIOSITY< has anyone seen that 'statement' anywhere else - other internet stores?  Official manufacturer websites?  Etc?  WHY would these 2 companies release a statement to only 1 internet store that isn't even one of the bigger retailers that has admittidly refused to even carry hard drive based units?

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Since Flipper came back with the "rest of the story", I've been searching on line.  I had not known why Music Maestro is out of business.  Now I know.  Some Cavs retailer recently told me that he can (legally) load up Music Maestro since they are gone.  I thought that idea is filled with legal holes when I heard it and it's even more ridiculous knowing why Music Maestro is gone.

(10/5/2006)Famous Music LLC (a unit of Viacom) is suing Stellar records for producing illegal and unauthorized coies of 118 well-known rock, rap and country songs since 2000.  

(5/26/2005) Sybersound, that produces Party Tyme and Billboard Top 10 Karaoke disks sued its competitors (named:  UAV; Madacy; Singing Machine; Audio Stream; Top Tunes; BCI; Compass Productions; Legacy Entertainment; Navarre Corp; Direct Source) for $200,000,000 in damages arising from music piracy.  Sybersound maintains that its profitability, as a result of charging higher retail prices, has been impacted by competitors who are illegally releasing songs, and therefore, have a lower cost of doing business and/or are making their products more desirable by including unauthorized material.  DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW THIS CASE TURNED OUT?

(11/19/2006)Leadsinger (a karaoke machine mnufacturer) is appealing before the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, a lower court ruling that in addition to licensing the music, separate and additional licensing is required to display the words on a CDG.

Ok... I'll chime in ...

I had numerous discussion with ASCAP, BMI, Harry Fox, Sound Choice, and many, many other organizations regarding karaoke (and DJ) format shifting.  I also did a LOT of reading on copyright law - including USC Title 17 and lots of decisions made since then.

Here's what I found out:

Karoake manufacturers contact the copyright owner for permission to use the songs on a karoaoke disc.  This is usually a 'handshake' deal initially with the final written contract coming a little later.  Sometimes the written contract is squashed for whatever reason and the discs are pulled.  This is basically what happened on the nearly infamous SC 8125 Eagles disc.  The initial approval was refused later.

Karaoke manufacturers pay all the licensing up front based on expected sales of a disc.

Karaoke discs are reproductions of the lyrics and music for a song.  This requires the equivilent of a master use license.  When the final disc is produced, the music on the disc is copyrighted by the karoake company (it's their performance - just as if they had 'covered' the tune) but the lyrics remain the copyright of the original copyright owner.  This means that they can license the tracks for use in a commercial purpose - like using their backing tracks for a demo tape to get a job as a professional singer.  BTW, last I checked SC charges $150 per track for this purpose.  You can also license the tracks for recording and distributing singers - they offer special pricing for this.  This is the sort of licensing that karoake 'booths' use to provide you with a video or cd of your singing.

The not for commerical use IS covered by ASCAP/BMI/SESAC.  It's playback of a commerical track for public performance.

Not all karaoke manufacturers operate above board 100% - some get tired of the approval process and start skipping it.  That's why MM got shut down.

As a general rule, if you buy a disc in good faith that it's legal (licensing wise) then you're not generally the person the lawyers go after when they sue.  They go after the company that produced the product.  This is basically why people who own SC8125 aren't prosecuted for the disc.  SC has already handled the licensing issue.  The same applies to most other manufacturers who suffer from licensing issues.  The end user isn't usually held liable for a product that's not licensed - the seller and/or manufacturer is.



Format shifting (in legal text it's called 'space-shifting' - from the RIAA vs. Diamond Multimedia case - aka the Rio decision) is illegal for any commercial use unless specifically licensed for that purpose (like the Internet Jukeboxes).  There isn't ANY legal way to space shift karoake tracks without getting permission from the original copyright owner on the lyrics and the karaoke manufacturer on the music.  And technically, you'll need a master use license - the exact same license that the karaoke manufacturer had to obtain - in order to make that transfer.  However, it's generally accepted by the karoake manufacturers that as long as you're not trying to 'get over' or cheat them you won't be the target of a lawsuit.  They're more considered with people who are buying a single disc to multi-op with or downloading tracks off the internet.  They want people that aren't paying for the tracks or aren't buying the same number of tracks they're actually using.


Usual disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, etc.  Consult an attorney that specializes in intellectual property and copyright law if you need legal advice.

Feel free to ask questions if you need to but I don't pop in that often... I'll answer them if I can.

In the meantime, feel free to read up on the DMCA, USC Title 17, the Rio decision, the betamax decision and do a search on copyright with google or even on this board to see my previous posts or posts from other organizations regarding copyright.

So the bottom line is this.    If there are going to be big legality issues with the disc companies about having or not having the rights to legally use certain songs, you better buy everyone you can before they close all the doors.    :O

I have to admit that crossed my mind. Will zoom be affected by any of this. Maybe I need to take a serious look at them.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Chartbuster DOES have people who deal with licensing. They try to stay as legit as possible. Notice they've never tried to make certain songs by the Eagles, Rolling Stones, etc. that are/were off limits for so long, and if they make a song and later lose the rights they usually pull them out of circulation ASAP. Not saying that there hasn't been the occasional "issue", but they seem to try to stay clean when it comes to that stuff.

They also gave CAVS permission to use their songs, but stopped doing that... for whatever reason.

Hopes this helps some.

Knightshow, you say CB stopped giving CAVS permission? It's a recent thing, I thought, that they had given CAVS permission?

This gets weirder and weirder

Did you just call me Knightshow?! Actually, that's kinda flattering.

Seriously though, I'm not sure when they gave permission and then stopped, but apparently it has happened.

kjchris

Where did you learn of CB's revocation to CAVS.  Flipper spoke with CAVS just a week or so ago.  And when I spoke with SC last week, they spoke of the fact that CB was working with CAVS, but they weren't/wouldn't!

I would think that if CB has ended the relationship with Cavs that they would not offer the CB downloads on their site. Just checked today and CB is still listed. Could be that they have not pulled the name yet.....


www.cavsusa.com

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Funny.  Unless things have change in the past several years, Charlotte, NC has a booming karaoke market.  When I was there some time ago, EVERYONE was using Sound Choice.  Since Sound Choice is based in the Charlotte area, you would think they would keep their own doorstep clean.

Well, first off, I doubt if any KJ will ever get sued doing a 1:1 copy ration to put their songs on a hard drive.  That would be really stupid of the manus to bite the hand that feeds them, but weirder things have happened.  And even if they due sue someone doing 1:1 copying, what are they going to sue for?

And obviously the "Internet Jukebokes" are legal and lisenced, and are a form of format/space shifting and, along with SC comming out with their on hard-drive based machine, and Cavs being lisenced by manus, should give president that it is OK to format/space sift for comercial use.

IMHO of course