Karaoke Forums

OK, Both acsap and bmi that enforce public performance also have divisions that are publishing Companies. If you talk to ascap/bmi. public performance they will tell you their division has no interest in the mechanical or synch copyrights. only public performance.  However the reason they exsist was because the publishing side need a watch dog. Now, to answer your other question, If I were SC and wanted to put you out of business, I would send you a letter saying your using my product illegally and you need to stop, if you did no problem!! if you resist I have my attorney's write you another letter, You think you know more than them so you still don't comply. Most people would stop using their product illegally by now. But most don't own an original disc so they continue to work. Obviously if you own the originals they aren't going to put you out of business and don't want to. but your a "smart guy" by the way you does not refer to "you' and you continue. SC files a lawsuit with that lawsuit they file complaints to the state attorney general and the us attorney generals offices. That you are using illegally obtained copyrighted music. Now it doesn't matter what the brand is of music on your hd. It's virtually all illegal in that format. and of coarse they sent you a letter as to what they were going to do.
Anyone with an once of sense has disappeared by now, don't you think

When I go professional, other than a HD, I will be legal.  So, call me stupid, no letter from any lawyer is going to cause me to abandon the thousands I have already invested.  

A Cease & Desist order is specific.  If I am not doing anything that is specifically illegal, there is nothing I need to cease and desist from.

I doubt that any court will issue a cease and desist order over the use of a HD
and if it did, I assume that would be the first test case.  If the law was already decided and prohibited the use of HD's I will cease at that point. I have a disc for everything in my catalog.  

And, if I am the test case, anybody here interested in joining in on my defense?

Lastly, I recommend not using SC or Stellar products.  Period!

It's a violation of the copyright law.  Whether a CD to CD copy or "format shift" it is copying. By making a copy to a HD it is the specific violation of copying.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Firstly I would like to apologise to those of you found my last post offensive...  yes. it was a dumba$$ comment, but it was meant to be!  Just trying to inject a bit of kiwi humour here!
The following, though is my attempt at a serious response to other issues..

There has been a bit of debate regarding what BMI/ASCAP do.  Contrary to Big Dog's opinion, it is my understanding that BMI does in fact give permissions to use music in a business. They do this thru granting a licence which permits music users to publicly "perform" copyrighted material.

While BMI does not own the copyright, they have an agreement with their members to collect royalties on their behalf.   BMI represents over 300,000 creators of music. Without BMI/ASCAP, businesses would have to gain permission from each individual copyright holder in order to play their music.  So, yes, BMI does grant permission to use the music.  

In regards to the HD debate, if a business has a licence to play recorded copyrighted music, then they can play that music regardless of the media, whether it be CD, MD, or HDD (which includes iPods and other mp3 players).  Furthermore, it doesn't matter who owns the player, the music can be played as long as the business holds a current licence.  The problem comes when we get to how that music got to be on any particular form of media.  If one wanted to copy their music collection from a CD (or CDG) to a HDD, then they would have to get the permission from the copyright holder to do so.  This means not only getting permission from the writer but also the publisher.  So, even if a composer allowed you to "Media Shift" their material from CD to HDD, then Soundchoice and Stellar, as publishers, can say NO!  Of course that doesn't mean you can't go to some other publisher and get them to allow you to copy THEIR CD of the same composition onto your HDD.  

In other words, if you want to use an HDD in your business and Soundchoice won't let you, then find a publisher that will!  Just don't have any SC songs on it or you open yourself to lawsuits!

I know there are a few sites around where you can download mp3 karaoke tracks that have lyrics imbedded in them.  Quite obviously these are licenced tracks, and therefore I don't think there would be any problem with using them on a HDD (obviously they are intended for that purpose).  So if one had a HDD with only these tracks on, there is no way that it would be illegal, right?

I thought is was funny.  In fact I think we all need to get toghter and RISE UP against the karaoke manus, and file suit against them before they can against us.  For godsake McDonnalds got sued for HOT coffe when some moron spilled it in their lap.

I still would like my question answered.....
What are they going to sue for if someone is using a legit 1:1 CD:harddrive copy ratio?  Don't they have to prove dammages?  What are the dammages!

Twansenne

I believe, as you, that proof of damages is critical in any suit against a KJ.
I believe that no show will be "raided" without probable cause and, as of yet, using a hard drive does not, in my opinion seem to be probable cause.
Typically, before anything goes to trial in this country, lawyers send threatening letters to cease and desist (not courts or prosecutors).
Does anyone know of any KJ who has been shut down using only one HD and whose HD was 100% backed up by owned discs, in an ASCAP/BMI licensed environment?

Timberlea,
I don't know if they get it and just don't want to admit it or if they really don't get it.
If you sell cocaine for ten years and don't get caught , I guess when you do get caught it' ok and the judge says hey don't worry about it you been doing this for years. COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT IS A FEDERAL AND STATE FELONY, PUNISHABLE BY UP TO  6 MONTHS IN JAIL AND UP TO $250,000 DOLLARS IN FINES PER OCCURENCE,
US COPYRIGHT LAWS (17 U.S.C.**102, 201, 201d ) and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA, title 1,and 17U.S.C.** 109,117)

These cases... any details, or more rumor and innuendo?

ANY cases against someone that's been a loyal purchaser and only converted to computer or copies while saving their investment wear and tear... or are the cases ONLY against multiriggers and those that reproduce SC works and sell counterfeit stuff (SPIN had several publicized cases on that)?

Matt,
I know of 3 here and 1 in South Carolina. Personally  and I will admit that they were over copied disc's where originals were NOT invoved. there are others and they don't make it to court .

......

....in the US.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Erc said SC and Steller were the only 2 companies taking a proactive stance on the hard drives. My response was they were there only 2 companies left, meaning out of most of the long time mfg. they were the only ones left. Don't know a lot about out of country mfgers. I do think that once there product gets here it has to conform to our laws. Just like cars that are shipped in. Like a german made SL-500. Has to have several thousand dollars worth of work before it can be licensed in the states.

So  an mp3+g file from Zoom, UK, MAY not be legal in the US?

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Look, Phxkj, we all get IT.  The question is what IT are you talking about?  If Stellar and SC are the only two companies in the country pursuing HD shows, and I don't have either of their products on my HD, what legal recourse do they have against me?  But even though my show will be 100% legit, I could lose out on a job after the scare tactic letter that some venues are being sent by those two companies.

If someone has a SC track on their HD and receives a "cease and desist" legal letter from SC, that KJ can take the SC track off of their HD if they don't want to pursue the issue in court.  And if the KJ's bootlegging I doubt that he/she will want to go to court.

If someone has a SC track on their HD and also owns the disc, it comes under the law(s) regarding media shifting.  Since there has been no test case of what that truly means, I KNOW the "jury is out on that matter".  We all respect the fact that copying material instead of buying it causes an economic loss to the owner of the copyright.  We keep wondering on this forum, what economic loss is incurred by the copyright holder when media shifting occurs?  Copyright laws exist to prevent abuses of copyrighted materials and to prevent the loss of money from their unauthorized use.

Furthermore, in terms of my show, when it gets up and running, I will be using both an external HD and an external CD-Rom drive with my PC.  So, when a track appears, is it "real or is it Memorex"?  And what's to stop others from doing the same?

Do you get it now?

And I'm starting to wonder what's your agenda when you imply we don't get it and basically state that SC and Stellar are the only manufacturers left?  Have you heard of Singing Machine, Chartbuster, Priddis, Pocket Songs, Legends, Backstage, All Star, Sybersound (Party Tyme), Magdacy, Zoom, Superfly?

I believe the resistance will come from many of the KJ's that have SC's on thier harddrives. Many of them have hardrive assorments that are PREDOMINANTLY SC seclections. As to any other MFR's its still illegal to COPY them to ANY other format without specific liscensing from the original copyright holder(artist, music lable, artist estate, etc). So again safest course of action is to use original store-bought discs and not burns, hardrives or cavs---all of which are COPIES.

Now the next question in all this is store-bought orginals that have NOT FOR PUBLIC PERFORMANCE WARNING LABLES on them. What to do with these(and there are many--not all--BUT MANY---just go through your assortments and see which ones have warning lables).

Ive accumulated about 500 original discs and a good many have warning labling on them. So are all those only allowed to be used for home use only and not PUBLICLY in a COMMERCIAL setting (Karaoke bar, etc)???

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Kurt,

As I related in a previous thread, I asked Chris (a salesman at SC) what that warning meant.  He told me it was to warn people against using their product as backup for a record produced for commercial resale, or against using their product for creating commercials, as examples.

And as you suggested, some manufacturers have no warning, at all.

Now, until we have an association that engages a lawyer to clarify all such issues for us and to recommend the best course of action for us, we are sheeple going to slaughter!  :drums:

If you ask me the simple solution to all this is for BMI/ASCAP to create a "KARAOKE DIVISION" and charge some token annual fee for allowing karaoke to be performed.

Win-win situation.  Arttists get a cut, KJ's stay in business with minimal legal interfereance--fee becomes a cost of doing business, either split bewteen KJ service buisness and venue, with costs passed along to singers, bar patrons. I dont see them ever getting around the copying to lappys because of so many different artists and liscnee holoders. But that will have to be settled in court. Perhaps some additional fee could be tacked on based on each separate storage device.

Anyway it will all have to go to court to bve settled and the best outcome would be one that is BUSINESS BASED where everyone involved gets a cut of the profits.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

karaoke sales are a drop in the bucket of music and other copyrighted sales...

why would they go to any bit of trouble for such small bananas?

After reading all this my thoughts are that those KJ's with 1:1 cd collections per show with hard drives may be ok, but some things still aren't clear. You would still need to have all your cd's with you at your show, and the ability to play them at a moments notice.

When you look at a pc (desktop or notebook), it isn't really obvious (particularly from a distance) if you are playing something from cd or hard drive. It seems unlikely some representative would look. I would think that would require some type of search warrant. However if it is BMI or related then any contract with them may require you to show your equipment or it may invalidate any contract or permissions you have with them so you may be forced to show your stuff.

Perhaps they would also start by sending the letters of intent to the bar owners who may then question how you are set up. Perhaps you could have a dual boot machine where you can only see the hard drive music files in a partition if you boot that version of the OS. If there are issues then you boot the cd only version. Or perhaps you could somehow utilize a "hot swappable" drive bay for your hard disks and just swap the two out. I have that feature in my current home desktop. I can just slide a hard drive out and replace it with another one - voila (no hard drive music files).

Would you want to tell the bar owner that you were running off the hd if he asked? Not sure. If you don't tell him the truth then he has plausible deniability, and you are protected unless the record company representatives raid your stuff. Hopefully you would have gotten advance word somehow and left the other hd at home. If not, perhaps you could have it set up to quickly erase that partition using a routine. There are programs out there that do this. A decent wipe would take a bit of time though and of course you would need a backup somewhere or you've really lost all the files.

You know, this is all starting to remind me of the movie Brasil! For those of you that have seen it - remember when the guys AC goes out in his apartment and he calls Central Services for repairs - but because of bureaucracy they can't do it. Then through stealth tactics like a cat burglar a rogue repairman mysterious shows up at night, and efficiently repairs everything. Next Central Services shows up expecting something is afoul.....  So likewise here you all are trying to just do your jobs and be efficient but because of the bureaucrats you've become criminals....rogue KJ warriors.

For those of you used to dealing with BMI / Ascap, and your bar owner on a regular basis - how do you think it could be pulled off? Can it be done? Would it be difficult? Is it worth the risk?

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The Truth Is Out There

Eric, Have you ever read the copyright laws or HRA ( Home Recording Act) or the Fair Use Act.or the DMCA ( Digital Millennium Copyright Act). I will be very surprised if you can say yes to that. Beause if you had you'd see that a copy of any karaoke cdg, is illegal for commercial use. And if you really read the fair use act you see that it only mentions audio recordings that fall under the fair use act and is very specific about that.Which would mean that a karaoke cdg. doesn't fall under the fair use act and by law can't even be copied for personal use. So while you say you will be 100% legal you won't be. But you are right if you don't have any SC or steller on your HD they can't come after you. Only the publishers, artist, FBI and Dept of Justice can. Oh, I forgot evey state has seperate copyright laws, that you would be breaking, but hell I think the most you can get at the state level is a class 3 felony.
Only good for like 3 years in jail and $20,000. dollar fine. Oh, and the trademark violation, I forgot about that eveytime the logo comes up on the sreen that's another
$5,000 dollar fine for willfull illegal use of a trademark. I guess that's what  "IT" means.