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Right but selection isn't necessarily the break all of a show.  I happen to know a VERY successful company that rotates their selection out every couple months - it NEVER tops 1,500 songs, but it is of all popular songs that need/want to be song.  They've been doing that for over 10 years & are never hurting for business.

So what are some of the songs that you might do or want to try - old school music or todays stuff.  Country, rock, ???

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Personally, I don't think they have to, UNLESS they're going to USE the second system or backup system at the same time as the primary one!
Here's where technology has allowed people to cheat their way into getting stuff that's no longer commercially available. (i.e. BOOTLEG) AND then these upstarts can go out and without ANY investment to speak of, challenge openly and even outbid (by underbidding) venues because they have "30,000 songs" where the guy who's been doing it for many years can only say "I've got 16,000"... Gee, ONE is legal... the other is NOT.Yeah, theft ain't a big thing, I guess.If you support the thieves, all that will happen is eventually they'll have a library that nobody will ever be able to add on to it (because the Manus will close shop)... that's called stagnation. Without fresh "blood", it will whither off and DIE! These shows will become nothing more than a lark or fad... and interest will finally die off... thanks to nobody putting out new stuff.

And who will be to blame?

I do too! I've still got several missing Pioneer cdgs and lasers I'd LOVE to have. Not in production, so the only way I can get them legally to put in my show is thru private purchase. I finally got the Eagles SC8125, the rare SC8148, many DKs...

THAT's the price of doing business if you don't buy multiple copies when the discs are released or available!

No way on EARTH could my second system EVER be like my one I have now!

Actually, THIS is what you said... How can this be FIRSTLY and then LASTLY?

Oh, how difficult language can become especially in this type of format as comperd to a continuous flow of conversation.  I live in the Ft Lauderdale area.  That covers a lot of ground and there are many, many shows to choose from on any given night of the week.  I know which ones offer, in my opinion, a catalog of songs that do not impress me, and which do.  That leaves over a dozen and a half KJ's with larger selections (many using CAVS systems).  It is from among those shows that I make my choice as to where I'll got on any given night, primarily considering the three criteria, in the order mentioned.

As to my comment about "biting the hand".  Aside from KJ's using loaded hard drives, there are others in my area who have only disk copies at their shows.  Those using any sizable amount of pirated material may think the "little bit" they are doing is insignificant, but they are part of a larger group that is diminishing the profitability of the manufacturers. That will hurt any KJ who plans to be in business for the long-run.  If nothing else, that could cause manufacturers to limit their selection (new inventory), or drive up the prices for the songs every KJ needs.  Worse, it could drive manufacturers out of business, which will reduce choices in products and also, perhaps allow prices to increase.  The general public frequenting such shows, are unaware of and unconcerned by such matters.  They just want what they want.  

Going back to the top of my comments.  What I have been implying from the start is that Bigdog's first posting deserves more consideration than some have given it.  If nothing else, owners are not always savy enough to know the best criteria for hiring a KJ and hearing that someone has 100,000, yes 100,000 songs might sound impressive to some, especially if that catalog comes cheap to the owner!

Again, what types of songs do you sing, name some names - not getting snotty, just curious.

I don't buy for quantity - been there done that.  I buy what our customers that come in ask for - when I can.  I only have a little over 10K songs - carfefully selected, quality companies over 14 years - and have been told by MANY that our selection is far superior (not my words) than most that boast the 20, 30, 40+ songs.  True I may not have the latest & greatest or even every song available - that would be stupid to even try & nearly impossible unless I wanted to be illegal too & buy a preloaded hard drive off of ebay, but I have also found I don't need them as they don't get sung.  I have some 'monthly' discs that I bought because they were the newest rage that are still siting on the shelf in their wrapper for the last 4 years.  So I no longer buy just to have.

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Lonman, I did mention some things in a previous post.  I own about 300 discs that I have bought and I have about 10 disks that someone ripped for me comprised of a selection I like to come back to from time to time, that I don't own.

Ironically, I was at a show last night that claimed to have 16000 songs (on disk) and I could not find what I wanted.  But... I had about 12 disks with me.      Here's what I sang


      Rodney Crowell  "Above and Beyond"  Sound Choice
      David Alan Coe "Divers Do It Deeper" Charbusters
      Jimmy Buffet "Fruitcakes" (my mix)
      Marty Stuart "Burn Me Down" Chartbusters
      Jay & The Americans "Cara Mia" Sound Choice (Only SC and Legends are any good for this number. The KJ had 5 tracks, but not SC or Legends)
      Sam Cooke "Another Saturday Night" Sound Choice (just released 9/06 - the disk is 100% Cooke but that track was never available before)

I had a singer last night, drove 20 miles.   He lives in a town where I karaoke two nights a week.    He goes to the karaoke (dive bar) right across the street 5 doors down, from it.    He says he has never been to mine.   The one he goes to is the computer hack that is selling all the hard drives.   So their selection is big.   The sound is shoe box heaven.(SUCKS)    I have over 9,000 one of a kind songs.     He said he loved my selection and my sound and the way I do karaoke.    So tonight I'll see if he shows up at mine.

9,000 songs on a great system, beats two shoe box speakers and a 40,000 song computer hack.    LMAO   Now That's AMERICA or wherever I am.  

Yeah none of those songs I would just go out & buy & have never had any request for them - if you came in & asked, I may pick them up, but seeing as you have those discs already & are probably the only one that would sing off of them, chances are I wouldn't get them anyway.  I do highly encourage our customers to bring in their own discs because I may not be able to get some of the more obscure songs - not a very smart business decision on my part (unless I wanted to go illegal & buy an illegally loaded hard drive).  Many of our singers bring in their own discs & some have several hundred $$ in custom discs alone.  Selection should not be a factor especially if you have something you can always sing with you, chances are there is SOMETHING in most books you have not seen or have wanted to try.  I'm all for diversity & wished more people would sing different songs every night, but to shun a show just because they may not have some obscure songs that most 'legal' shows wouldn't have anyway, is a little too anal.  
The Sam Cooke disc I am actively ordering however.

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You are still kind of vague on this.  If a company is using back up (burned) copies of their legally purchased discs - and NOT using them at the same time at anytime, then there is no monetary impact on any manufacturer.  It is technically a copyright violation, but no monetary loss.  Now when a kj buys a pre-loaded hard drive off of e-bay, this hard drive is completely illegal as the original set of music is not going with it, the kj does not own the original set - so there is complete monetary loss to the manufacturers that are on that hard drive.  As far as monetary loss to the manufacturer & them producing less & less or going under entirely, this is what we've been saying is how these hard drives are killing karaoke as we all currently know it.  And I am positive that 90+% those boasting that many songs 40, 50, 60+ CAVS libriaries are also illegal, there aren't enough LEGAL download sites with that many songs available at this time, there is no WAY that they could own that many discs legally & several of the manufacturers that you listed have avidly denied the rights for anyone to load their material into CAVS, not that it doesn't stop anyone.  
So I don't understand the hand that feeds you comment.  The ones that aren't buying illegally pre-loaded hard drives aren't biting anyone.  It's the ones that are & have the huge libraries that you want to support.



But given that most of these systems ARE in fact illegally obtained through scumbags off of ebay & such - don't make them legal just because someone paid cash for them.  These newbies that BD is talking about buy these illegally loaded drives & then get into business - i've heard some that have pretty nice sound systems as well, not all are the shoebox systems you coined.   Figure the average karaoke disc has 15 songs - for a system that boasts even 50K songs would need over 3,000+ real discs alone just to legally support the claim, more if the disc contains less songs - say those discs ran $15 (very low scale for quality) @ just 3000 x $15 is $50,000, and we all know that the Sound Choice Spotlights alone are about $20-23 each disc as are some other brands - so that is an EXTREMELY low $$ figure.  Do you honestly think that ANY of those large book companies have that many original discs to support their claim of that much music - you cannot HONESTLY believe they do.  $50,000 that the manufacturers are out because someone bought a drive off of ebay instead of buying real legal discs.  Times that figure per active library & the sum adds up fast.
Now again, I am all for computer users, it is a great tool when used legally - meaning OWNING all the original music that you actively use!

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Not to hijack this topic, but besides the KJ and the selection and the overall sound - I think the venue atomosphere, other patrons, prices, bar staff, location all play an important part in which shows singers decide to become REGULARS.

Jam you are right on with this.  If you're at a bar with a bad reputation, virtually nothing will bring customers in.  Conversely a bar that is very comfortable with the right eminities can have crap entertainment and still do extremely well.

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Lonman, you're losing me completely.  And there are others who aren't getting my points. So, I'll reiterate.
 1. Several of you have suggested that those with loaded hard drives have inferior sound systems, too many duplicated songs, inferior disk manufacturers, poor quality reproductions, and more.  Those in my area who have a loaded hard drive do not display any of those undesirable qualities.  Though I'm still not sure what impact the dups have on the audience.  Isn't the net number of unique tracks available to you  a part of how you evaluate your collection?  It is for me, as a hobbyist, with my disks.
   2. Some "loaded" systems are CAVs having songs (from SC, CB and etc) that are suppose to be legal.  There are web sites offering CAVS systems with loaded drives (See Karaokecart.com. The following came from the home page of their site today))

    Cavs 203G USB DVD/CDG Player (Black) w/160 GB Drive/13,900 Songs $999.99 $899.99
>> CAVS DVD-203G USB DVD, CDG, SCDG, DVIX,.. PLAYER W/160 GB External Hard Drive    160 GB External Hard Drive
(external hard drive that will store up to 49,999 songs

 3.  If you folks want to make the argument that the number of songs is irrelevant to drawing a crowd, because the average participant does the same handful of songs over and over.  Touche.  I only pointed out that the size of the selection matters to me; hence, a different opinion.  (exactly what I said initially)
 4.  Lonman asked about what I sing.  I used a real example of what I encountered last night regarding six selections.  He said that would neither be able nor be desirous of accomodating me for most of what I requested.  And I don't expect any KJ to ask me what I would like in his/her catalog or to buy a disk for me!  But, I know where I can go to find what I want.    And that, again, is a part of why I offered the "different opinion" herein.  
 5. I also pointed out that the size of the catalog might impress owners (the ones that do the hiring).  If all else is equal between one KJ and another, why wouldn't the unknowing owner be impressed with a show that claims to offer 100,000 songs?
 6. As to venues, please, that is not part of the issue.  Evaluate my points based upon the assumption that the venues are all of equal appeal.  There are those of us who prefer biker bars, while others will shun them.  True?
 7.  Though I can't prove it and don't believe this statement, perhaps those who find the same songs being requested over and over don't have enough of a selection?
 8.  Most important, there should be a real concern for those making a living in the business about the loaded drives.  Dismissing the KJ's involved, or their sound systems, or their ethics will not change the reality that in my area many such shows exist.

I DO NOT MAKE IT A HABIT OF GOING TO THE LAPTOP SHOWS, BUT I DO LOOK FOR THE CAVS SHOWS (BELIEVING THEY ARE LEGAL)

The majority of the illegal hard drives are typically crappy systems, if the illegal drives in your area display great sound, well then they are most definitely one step up over other illegals.  I'm sure they CAN afford better systems, they saved over $50,000 in having to buy real discs for their music libraries  :(  .  
Impact of dups - no real impact but most of these companies count their entire library as individual tracks - they aren't they are duplicated tracks.  So if a company advertises 50,000, they could in fact have 1/2-3/4 less than that in individual song titles.  This is 'duping' the crowd by advertising a false number.  The net number IS what counts, I have 10,500 unique titles - this is the number I advertise, I HAVE over 15,000 songs including dups - this number is meaningless.



Yes there are sites advertising these machines loaded with those companies - doesn't make them legal.  Sound Choice alone has stated numerous times that they have nor will they EVER license their music for use in a CAVS machine for sale, so anything being sold with their library IS illegal - even karaoke stores are jumping on this bandwagon because no one seems to be doing anything about it right now.  The manufacturers that are licensed for sale in the CAVS machines & bundled in their SCDG packs last I heard were Top Hits Monthly, Music Maestro, BMB/Nikkodo, Nu-Tech, DK, & Chartbuster if i'm not mistaken.  I knew a guy that had a store in this area, he would literally open up a new disc he got in supply, copy it to his hard drive, then re-shrink wrap it to sell as new.  His hard drive was complete with everything possibly available, he then took that drive & made several copies & ran 4-5 shows with it, so not ONLY did he steal his library by not paying for it, he MADE money on the susequent sale of the disc he opend TO copy & this WAS a store, luckily they are no longer in business.



And believe it or not, your (as does everyones) opinion DOES matter, we just may not handle responses well  :no:



Right, but you also made it seem like the shows that DIDN'T have what you wanted weren't good because we choose to stay legal & not buy illegal preloaded drives.  If you consider these shows better just because of their (most likely illegal) selection, then again, you are a little too anal about karaoke.  I have never had anyone walk out of my show saying they couldn't find SOMETHING to sing.



Most of the bars i've played could give a rip about song selection, they want bodies in the seats.  My second system consists of 3,500 individual song titles, I don't work it anymore simply because of pay, rarely have I ever been asked about how big the selection was - and the one occasion it was brought up, I told him flat out, we have a request sheet out for YOUR customers & we buy the songs YOUR customers want to sing & they were happy with that answer & I made good when I was working it.



But all venues are not created equal - nor will they ever be & some people will go to certain places regardless whether some kind of entertainment is there or not or who is running karaoke or dj or live or etc....



Highly doubtful.  I work the same club 7 nights a week since 92.  We get the same regulars with new people walking in nightly some becoming regs, some that just hop around.  These people as I said many collect their slips at the end of the night & keep them & turn them in the next time.  Some look for new songs to try & write them down & will try them eventually, some don't even crack open a book anymore & they sing what is in their stack only.  Newbies are the only time I sometimes hear different music & if they ask for a song that I don't have, I write it down on the request list with their email.  If it's a disc that I can use & it may get some play, i'll probably pick it up.  The new Evanescence song Call Me When You're Sober came out a few months ago, I never had 1 request for it until last Sat & I will most likely pick this one up now, but wasn't going to be the first on the block to have it.



The sad part is these illegal shows do exist & probably always will until the RIAA or whoever finally gets off their asses & start popping these rigs & their owners.  They don't believe it is hurting karaoke in anyway, but in actuallity - it does!

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Food for thought:

http://www.ipjustice.org/karaokefairuse.shtml

http://www.karaokeantipiracyagency.com/faq.html

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/88614/riaa- ... ot-ok.html

After reading all of ericlater posts I still do not understand what he is talking about. I am just confused; is it just me?

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Lonman, I think you now see the points I've been trying to make.  Most important of which is that the first post from Bigdog on this subject should not have been so completely dismissed.

The only comment of yours I'm still not sure about concerns my goals when I go out singing.  Is it anal for me to want to experience the largest variety of choices in an attempt to find new material to sing, or is it more anal when one sings the same songs over and over and over and over?

I have never walked out of a show because of the selection, but there are shows I don't frequent as often as others because the selection does not excite me.  

As to VENUE, I maintain it's not a factor.  I said assume all venues are equal.  The quality of a venue is in the eye of the beholder.  Would you regularly attend a venue you dislike just to be entertained?  Why would suggest that anyone else would?  I, however,  might not like a place you enjoy, and vice versa.  

And Loman, you omitted the last comment from my previous post
I DO NOT MAKE IT A HABIT OF GOING TO THE LAPTOP SHOWS, BUT I DO LOOK FOR THE CAVS SHOWS (BELIEVING THEY ARE LEGAL)

Jian, you cannot just read my posts.  They were in response to the comments that preceded mine.  Some, for example, asserted that all shows utilizing loaded hard drives were inferior in every way.  One of my points, simply, was to apprise this forum that there are such shows in my area that are equal in sound equipment quality, song quality and audience following to any show they know of!

It may be the way you stated it.  The way I interpreted is that you would not enjoy going to any show that didn't have a large selection - the number you kept throwing out were in the 10's of thousands.  Attempting to find new material is great, but if a venue doesn't have it, I gathered the fact that you don't go.   Like I said MOST legal companies are not going to buy the obscure stuf - as a rule.  MOST of the illegal companies will have these selections as their drives are loaded with entire catalogs whether people want to sing them or not - it doesn't matter, they are basically paying for a large hard drive with 10's of thousands of songs they didn't buy originally, not just carefully selected tunes, but just think if people keep supporting these companies, even the obscure songs will be no more as karaoke will die altogether if something doesn't stop.
Unless you never repeat a song in your entire karaoke lifetime, I find it hard to believe that you can't walk into most any show (good or bad) & find something to sing.

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IPJustice just is basically talking about making 1:1 backups of your legally purchased discs - NOT buying fully loaded drives that you don't own any of the originals or making several copies for multiple shows.

KAPA - right idea, no means to support itself.

RIAA, I posted something similar & they may the ones that will finally take all of these illegal computer users down!  Right now they are targeting people who make videos of themselves singing to karaoke tracks.  Hopefully they go after the unlicensed download sites & people who purchased through Ebay - shouldn't be that hard to trace each purchase.  Maybe not fine the people who bought, just confiscate their hard drive.  The ones that should be prosecuted fully are the ones selling & they should be fined/jailed for EVERY hard drive they sold!!!!!

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Just an example of what make me confused.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott