Karaoke Forums

Hi ,gonna try to make a long story short here, but we let a KJ go b/c he thought it would be nice to tell a few friends of his ( that used to always come to our shows )
where I bought my stuff ( CDG'S, equipment etc...) How to use it all, and where our future prospects were  so they could start a business of their own . Well they did and wanted my KJ to come to work for them promising him much more $ than we paid him. When he filled us in on all of this, he said he could work for us until they got a gig. We informed him like he** he would and thought that would be the end of that. Its not... he comes to our shows and gigs handing out his cards trying to drum up business. I mean if it wasnt enough he lost a few of our gigs by drinking on the clock ( a policy we have is No Drinking ) and getting "Stuck on Stupid ", he wants to positivly ruin our rep by doing stupid crap like this. This has been going on for months now. July 4th was his last attempt. Had a crowd of people checking our studio out while someone was singing in it and he came up handing out cards telling people " I'm not with them anymore, check us out"  
 My question is they now have 80,000 songs they bought already on a hard drive illegally.We have made every attempt to let bygones be bygones, but have really had enough! They now have their first gig and I have half a mind to go and inform the place of the illegal hard drive and let them know that they are in danger of possibly losing their liqor license if certain people found out, or at least go and hand out cards at his gig. Some people say good idea and some say bad idea only b/c it will be sinking to his level. I really have no interest in ruining the people who own the business or the person that sold them the hard drive just getting our ex KJ off my a**. A little tid bit is he had the balls to call last week and asked for his job back saying that he feels hes being used. Good !!
 Im curious to know what all of you would do in this situation.
OH BY THE WAY DID I MENTION THIS EX KJ IS MY YOUNGER BROTHER ??? YEP FAMILY... GOTTA LOVE 'EM !! JERK !!!

_________________
Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]

Well I wouldn't do anything at their gig, if they are desparate enough to be coming to yours to drum up business, probably aren't going to last.  As far as the other coming into yours, have the bar 86 him do to solicting business for another establishment.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Our bar has a sign in the front window.  "NO SOLICTING".  I have no problem with competition coming into the bar and someone "ask" for their card but not to just openly advertise.

Like Lonman, I wouldn't do anything at their show.  Their desparate or they wouldn't be acting and doing what their doing.  And as far as your brother?...sorry, too many times family and business just don't work out.  Not saying it can't work; just doesn't usually.  Sounds like lil' brother could use some growing up.  "Cutting the cord" might be just the best thing you've ever done for him.  What he's doing shows no respect for you or your company.  Good luck.

Sorry, didn't mean to come off sounding like "Dr. Phil."

Kelly

Never, Never, Never stoop to their level.  It isn't worth it, and you may get more than what you bargained for.  And oh how awful to have had it been family!
This has happened to us.  We trained I don't know know how many KJ's in the past.  They learned, they bought, they started their own business.  Kinda hurts when you think you just entrusted someone with all your equipment and they can turn around and stab you in the back.  But, what we started doing was making employees sign a No-Compete clause.  They couldn't do business within 100 miles of our jobs.  When you find out that they are under cutting you, or bad mouthing you to get your jobs, you can remind them that they signed it and you will enforce it.
It is a shame that people can take such advantage, and feel no remorse.
On the bright side, do you really think your following will follow this guy?  I doubt it.

Well, up until you said he was your brother I was going to recommend shooting him.  But seeing as how he's family that might bring up other issues.

Seriously, there is not a lot that you can do.  It's always better to take the higher road.  If you run your show right and your owners and customers like you there's not a lot that he can do to ruin your business.

It might be a good idea to talk to the owners and let them know that someone is is their place soliciting business for their competition.  I'm sure the owners don't want to let that happen.

As far as the illegal music is concerned that's a risk that your brother and his group are taking and that the owners they play for are taking.  The owners will always have the defense that they didn't know about it.

There is always competition and it doesn't matter whether it comes from inside or outside.  It's up to you to keep your show on a level that is competitive no matter what.

I've run into this a bunch of times with bands I've been in.  Members change at various points and if you've been playing a place it's always part of the plan to go back and see if you can get the new band in there.  While I don't think loyalty is generally an attribute that many bar owners have, there is something to be said for knowing who you're dealing with.  You are a known commodity.  Your brother and his group are not.  If you are popular and you are bringing in business your owners may not see a compelling reason to change—regardless of who the competition is.

I understand that this really affects you on a personal level.  But this is a business.  These kinds of things happen.  How you deal with it says a lot about you and who you are.

Larry

_________________
"Life is too short for diet soda and lite beer"

Well, up until you said he was your brother I was going to recommend shooting him.  But seeing as how he's family that might bring up other issues.

Seriously, there is not a lot that you can do.  It's always better to take the higher road.  If you run your show right and your owners and customers like you there's not a lot that he can do to ruin your business.

It might be a good idea to talk to the owners and let them know that someone is is their place soliciting business for their competition.  I'm sure the owners don't want to let that happen.

As far as the illegal music is concerned that's a risk that your brother and his group are taking and that the owners they play for are taking.  The owners will always have the defense that they didn't know about it.

There is always competition and it doesn't matter whether it comes from inside or outside.  It's up to you to keep your show on a level that is competitive no matter what.

I've run into this a bunch of times with bands I've been in.  Members change at various points and if you've been playing a place it's always part of the plan to go back and see if you can get the new band in there.  While I don't think loyalty is generally an attribute that many bar owners have, there is something to be said for knowing who you're dealing with.  You are a known commodity.  Your brother and his group are not.  If you are popular and you are bringing in business your owners may not see a compelling reason to change—regardless of who the competition is.

I understand that this really affects you on a personal level.  But this is a business.  These kinds of things happen.  How you deal with it says a lot about you and who you are.

Larry

_________________
"Life is too short for diet soda and lite beer"

Can you post your no compete clause.  We just hired a new KJ and told her we wanted to have her sign one.  She said she had no problem signing it.  I have a no compete clause I found somewhere and it seems overly complicated.  We want something short sweet and to the point but at the same time cover all the needed bases.

Thanks!

_________________
Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]

Have fun trying to enforce a No-Compete clause. For how long is it in force? 90 days, 6 months, a year, for ever? I doubt a court would side with such a clause. About the only thing you could really enforce was something dealing with use of your comapny name(trademark) or attempting to take your show or taking of trade secrets. DJ's move around all the time. They come and go and you cant prevent them from trying to make a living at their craft by attempting to bar them from a geographic area. Some retail companys have these as to going to work for their suppliers or other outfits that might cause a conflict of interest. But even then you cant prevent an indivual the opportunity to work independetly. I worked for a person taht had one---and the only stipulation in his no-compete was that you agreed to not approach venues he had shows with in an attempt to steal his show/venues. Cant bar a person from doing entertainment in the same town. For example would you really try to bar a person form working in a place like say...........Los Angeles? Thats about a 100 mile geographic area? Not really enforcable. 100 miles.......sounds like that would cross county lines and possibley even state lines depending on location. I certainly wouldnt abide by it. Sounds like a bit of a reach to me.

_________________
"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Yeah, I definately wouldn't visit his gig and do what he's been doing. Also, like everyone said, if he is trying to solicit business for another bar at your bar, just tell your bar manager/owner about him and that will be over real quick if the owner/manager has half a brain.

As far as the illegal hard drive, you may just want to send a polite, anonymous letter to their bar owner warning him of the ramifications of the illegal show, though I'd stay away from being in any way accusing or negative and just have the attitude of informing the owner of the rational implecations for his own benefit.

But overall, when it comes down to it, the immediate problem is all about the money and the business, so I'd protect my investment and interests when your brother is intruding on your gig, but not worry about what he is doing otherwise.

In the end, though, if you love your brother, don't make this something that comes between your family ties, even if he seems to be (people make mistakes and bad decisions, don't crucify him for it). The karaoke business isn't nearly as important in the long run (and on the family front you may need to sit him down and tell him that!!).

_________________
C Mc
KJ, FL

I have seen the no compete clauses fail in court.  1 host I hired years ago said he had 1 with a company that let him go stating he couldn't work in karaoke for 1 year after termination/quit & they took him to court & lost stating they couldn't prevent him from working simply because they said so - it was all signed that he understood even, to no avail to the other company.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

non-compete clauses are, for the most part, a deterrent.  Texas, for example, is a"right to works" state.  that means a former employer cannot keep you from earning living in your profession.  as long as a person can show that this is their trained background and the way they earn a living, the non-compete is not worth the piece of paper on which it is written.  you may be able to tie the person up in court long enough for them to give in, but it will cost youmoney and you msut decide if it is worth the effort.  
how do i know about non-competes?  i use to work for a large corporation.  i recently (as in last week) went into business for myself in the same field.  my attorney, who is one of the best business attorneys in the state of Texas, gave me all the information i needed.  in fact, if my former emplyoer takes me to court with a cease and decist, i may be able to counter sue for harrassment and lost wages.  how's that for a non-compete story?

all taht having been said, i hope everything  works out well for you.  because the little twerp is family, i would just have a long sit down with him and talk it out.  if he doesn't understand after that, lock him in the closet for awhile....that's what my sister use to do to me!

_________________
All work and no play make Homer something something

I don't know if I would have handled it as well as you have to this point. I have no advice to offer that hasn't already been said. I do agree with the people above who recommended staying above board and riding it out.

The only thing I can recommend is not to do anything that will ever compromise your self respect in this case.

Good luck to you, not that you need it but just want to wish you the best.

I've seen in other threads here that losing a gig might only be a temporary thing. The bar owner could end up coming to you to ask you back. In this case you might have leverage to encourage him/her to pay you more the next time around.

Chuck

I agree with the other posters who have said that a "No Compete" clause is un-enforceable pretty much. Like the one poster from Texas said, Florida is also a right to work state and then if you are being realistic, nothing about KJing or DJing is a trade secret so there is no infringement there. Trying to stop someone from KJing in your "area" would be like a bar owner/manager telling his bartenders that if they left him they couldn't work at another bar within a certain distance of his place. NOT GONNA HAPPEN!!!!!!! No court would uphold something like that. Maybe if you were doing something that only a handful of people in the world could do, a court might prevent a former employee from doing it in your backdoor, but not Karaoke.

Just take your little brother out behind the wood shed and teach him the facts of life, and if that doesn't work tell Daddy. Don't tell Momma because Mommas always side with their little boys, but Daddy will stick up for his baby girl!!!!!!

_________________
Keep on Keeping On! It's never too late and you're never too old!!!!!

I have to agree.  Don't jeopardize your integrity, self respect, and most of all your reputation!

I agree with not lowering yourself to his level regarding business practices.  I've also found that "what goes around, comes around" so I try very hard to not subject myself to some horrible boomerang problem....  I wish I were more successful at that....  

We don't promote our own shows at other bars so if he is coming in to the bar to promote other bars just tell the management/bartender/owner and I'm sure they will show him the door.

From the perspective of an owner of a KJ company a non-compete clause would be great, but from the perspective of an employee of a KJ company I think that would stink...  We have trained KJ's to work for our company and have had two strike out on their own, with varying degrees of success...  We don't bad-mouth them, even the one who was sneaky at what he did....  Heck, when we started we worked for someone else.....

As far as the brother thing, OUCH!!!!  In the old days I'd just beat the crap out of him; not sure what I'd do now....  Get into a big fight (verbal of course, where I let him know how much that hurt) or nurse my wounds until I was able to believe that he's human and made a mistake....  A very BIG one...

Susie

_________________
You do it in the shower,
you do it in the car,
Ccome do it with us,
and be a star!!!!

Karaoke with Full House Entertainment

[scroll]Just because I have a short attention span doesn't mean...... [/scroll]

First off,  you've brought up MANY situations... and are asking a philosophical question here.... This involved "younger sibling",  and "a business"... It's complicated by several factors,  perhaps even you are to take some blame;
Here's why.



As you know, this is a multi-faceted problem. When your younger sibling is the one that hasn't just done one or two things that would be considered a breach of business ethics, and than taken liberties likely because he's also being a bratty younger brother, you end up with one of the most painful, aggravating problems in business,  and I've seen it alot... Son screw's father in business, vice versa, family members end up in court because business issue greed became more important than family..  ANother area is, since he is your younger brother, you are privy to know certain things that an average business person would never find out about... "Telling of common known friends, business tips".. Many share these, but the boss just never finds out... Many DO use inside tips, to establish contacts too, and go forward in the business world.... Is it right ?  Nope ?  But it's not always spelled out, or common sense in a younger more foolish person that :it's blatantly: wrong.... This is complicated BECAUSE it's an immediate family member.... DID YOU educated this person, instill business ethics sense in him ?  He's young, correct ?


Unfortunately there is a "Moral" here, and that is sometimes going into business, or hiring a family member IS NOT a good idea for this VERY reason.  SOrry about the anguish.  This is complicated because it doesn't only deal with business, it deals with immediate family.. age of individual, and possibly your own failure to lay down rules at the beginning teaching a family member (depending on his age),.  

"This is what *I*, or we as owners DO NOT allow, from family, or ANYONE else", etc...Depending on his age, and what type knowledge this younger sibling has of business, or business sense, depending on what transpired within your family, and business relationship each step of the way, it's complicated to know what really happened here... What he talks about, to whom he discusses it with is really up to you to dictate is or isn't allowed...

ANother aspect (to try to be quite objective is your presentation here)... MANY things have happened... and very different things,,, First he's your brother, and second naturally he has good friends of his own, sharing of certain sources MIGHT or might not've been acceptable... I have divulged to friends and POSSIBLE competitors where I buy my "stuff" ANYONE in the same business, even an ally at some point down the road MIGHT become a competitor,  At the time, it's an innocent well-intended sharing of info with INTENT to "help a friend", but the sequence of events that started unfolding or domino's that started falling got ugly... WHY this happened, how you handled it as older sister, and business owner at different steps along the way... has alot to do with YOUR OWN individual relationship both as family and boss....

This is too complicated and messy a problem since there's a second side,  WHat he did is wrong,  but why did he do it ?  Did you educate him at all about business ethics, and outline do's and do not's prior to hiring him ?   This is NOT a simple situation... If you hire a younger sibling that is temperamental, has NO business sense, doesn't even know the meaning of the tax-payers dollar yet, has never been in the job force yet.... and assume he's going to do fine,  you've hired an employee in essence you've done no background check on... THIS MIGHT be partially your own fault too.

JMO...  We don't know the whole chain of events that transpired along this sequence of events, ONLY your presentation.... Was there a family altercation ?  Were his actions deliberately malicious  ?  Was their intent to harm your business ?  or was he throwing a tantrum as bratty little brother with NO prior business sense ?

Too many factors...  Your own "people" sense comes into play here... besides being your younger brother, he's a "person"... Should you have hired him ? or did you make certain assumotions you shouldn't have made, without laying down some guidelines are business rules.  I WOULD NOT readily hire an immediate family member unless there was a VERY well established understanding.,, even in such a case, family life, and business events run amok in nepotism

When you hire an employee just because "He's a younger brother".... well.... You need to do ALOT of explaining what this means to him... and not assume..

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Quite a situation you have on your hands. As for myself, when I was acting I had to sign several 'no compete' contracts, but that was just a standard part of the business.
In the biking community, many of us rather than go for the revenge aspect, we get our point across by showing indifference. In other words, we 'ghost' the person, meaning that this someone has ripped us off and know longer exist in our world. I even went as far as to have a 'In Memory Of' patch made and put on my vest to let folks know about one particular person that ripped me off. He and I shared a business, and he ripped me off big time. Stupid me for trusting him so much, and shame on him for betraying a 'brother'. But when folks saw the patch and ask for an explanation, they would in turn no longer support the guy either, and it wasn't but a couple of months later that he went out of business. Now I have no idea how close the bonds are in the Karaoke community, but once you are a 'ghost' within our community, you are dead to our eyes, and believe me the word travels fast. In my opinion, indifference has a much greater impact than confrontation. Especially since it's family and you're gonna have to run into them from time to time. Hopefully in the long run, the person will realize the wrong they've done to you and try to make amends. I know they can't make up for the business or the money, but hopefully they will realize that family is in fact blood kin and try to make amends on a personal level. Right now, I know you're mad and you're hurt, but if he's going down a path like you mentioned, what could you do to him that he isn't eventually going to do to himself. I'm a firm believer in Karma, what goes around comes around.
Okay enough of my silly rambles. Good luck to you.

James
Maninblack

_________________
I serve no man and am loyal to only one God.

Being critical of a person's success in any respect speaks volumes about the lack of your own.

Love as though you've never been hurt, Dance as though no one's watching, Sing as though God Himself were listening.

It's not only seeking to their level,  It's black listing yourself by doing something frowned on in the trade, correct ?  If everyone bashed their competitor's like that, things would get really messy.. One aspect is THEY are your competitor, is that THEIR fault ?   Another aspect you are feeling is that your young brother has been traitorous.  THese are TWO entirely separate issues, and must not be lumped into the same "quick fix"... You deal with your relationship with your brother, assuming there still is one... Depending how young he is, and what's happened in YOUR relationship with him even before this "leaving you", and joining them, WHY did he march around in front of you handing out competitor's cards ?  WHat else happened in your relationship ?  You have another relationship besides business with the kid... WHo knows ??  Why was he pissed off ?....we don't know... Why was he angry at you ?  Was he ?   If he was this much of a potential brat, why did you hire him ?   SOrry to be like this, but there are always many sides to each story.... HOW WELL did you train him. or define the needs of YOUR business to him ?  or did these events happen because of other makings, and in hinesight, you are miffed ?

One other thing,  I assume the head of this company "Randy" is your husband, and agreed that you can hire your younger brother ?  or is this ALL inside family business ?

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Just another word about the "no compete" agreement.  What has been said here is correct.  For the most part they are difficult to enforce.  The jurisdiction is important because in some they cannot be enforced at all.  Enforceability also has a lot to do with the circumstances under which an employee came to be an ex-employee.  In most cases no compete agreements are not looked on favoribly by the court if the employee was fired.  That's because the court will look upon any kind of enforcement as restraining the person's ability to make a living.  If the employee resigns voluntarily, it's a different story but the courts are still reluctant to enforce such an agreement.

To  my knowledge the principle factor that might make a no compete agreement enforceable is when there is an issue of trade secrets, proprietary systems/ equipment or something of that nature.  Then the employer can argue that there is a danger that the employee will use technology or techniques in such a way as to injure the employer.  

The other element here is expense.  An agreement of any kind is only as good as the willingness of the parties involved to abide by the agreement.  When one of the parties doesn't want to play nice, legal action is the only remedy available.  Any kind of legal proceeding, whether successful or not, is expensive.  And assuming that one is successful, and the plantiff wins a money judgement against someone, enforcement can be a major issue there too.  Or if the plantiff wins a an injunction or a cease and desist order, someone has to enforce that.  Given the work load of many law enforcement officials, I can't see them placing a high priority on enforcing a court order in this type of situation.

So it's possible to be right morally, legally and otherwise.  But being right is often not enough.

Beyond all of that it is not unusual for an employee to break away and start a similar business.  In some cases it's because the employee believes that there is a better way to run the business.  Sometimes the employee wants the independence and doesn't know anything about any other kind of business.  There can be a hundred different reasons and not nearly all of them constitute disloyalty.  

A number of years ago in our locality a television meteorologist decided to change employers.  He had signed a non compete agreement that prohibited him, not from working, but from appearing on-camera for a local competitor for a year.  The reason he left was simple, the competing station was willing to offer him more money.  As I recall the existence of the agreement was well-known.  But neither television station wanted a public fight over the issue.  So the meteorologist quietly went to work for the other station, didn't appear on the air for a year and everybody was satisfied.  To my knowledge the agreement was never tested in court.  According to an attorney friend, it was unlikely that the agreement would have held up.  The reason was that the meteorologist's employer had ample opportunity and the means to keep him in their employ.  He could hardly be faulted for wanting to take a job that paid more.  The existing employer could not have been able to make an effective argument that the employ, by virtue of going to work for another television station, was going to hurt their business.

The karaoke business is not one where, it seems to me, there is much in the way of trade secrets to protect.  I've ended up in the business quite by accident.  Equipment wasn't a big deal because I already owned the sound equipment I needed by virtue of having played in live bands for nearly 40 years.  Without any assistance from anyone, I did research on the internet and determined what model of karaoke machine I felt was most appropriate.  As far as music is concerned, I bought a couple of CDG discs from stores but the majority were purchased over the internet, either through karaoke dealers or via eBay.  

There are some karaoke do's and don'ts that any reasonably observant person could pick up from going to a few karaoke shows.  

None of this would necessarily make one an expert but that and the learning that inevitably accrues from experience would go a long way towards making one a competent KJ.

So the question becomes, just exactly what did your brother steal from you that he could not have obtained on his own anyway?  None of this is a deep dark secret.  

If he joined your company in the first place with the idea of assembling a sufficient amount of knowledge to go on his own that's one thing.  If he and friends got to talking and decided they could offer product competitive with yours, that's pretty much American enterprise at it's best.  

Even showing up at your gigs and passing around his business card (if that's the sole reason he's there) seems more a lack of good taste than a terrible breach of business ethics.  After all, have you ever given someone your card at somebody else's show?  Maybe to a patron or maybe to an owner?  We all do something like that at one time or another.  It's called drumming up business.  

Here's a question for you.  You're a young, eager, and motivated person.  You want to get ahead in the world.  Eventually you would like your own business.  But you have neither the means, the knowledge or the experience to do that today.  So you start working for a company so you can learn the ropes.  Along comes a benefactor.  It's a great partnership.  He has the money to get the business started, you have the knowledge and experience.  Why shouldn't you take advantage of the opportunity?

I've said a lot here without knowing both sides of the story and without any knowledge of the motives of everyone involved.   So my view might be somewhat different depending upon the actual facts.  But, by and large, what I've written portrays my feelings.  I don't like and would never support predatory business practicess.  But competition, while never welcomed, should probably not be feared as long as the playing field is reasonably level.  There is something to be said for having been there first.

Larry

_________________
"Life is too short for diet soda and lite beer"

I would personally talk to the owner about the "legalities" of what your former employee is doing. And admit that there's no real authority AT THE MOMENT that's enforcing such illegal behavior, BUT the RIAA is actively pursuing people for piracy... and now that the owner KNOWS the situation, he COULD be held liable!! For encouraging active piracy.

Probably wouldn't work... but at least it would be quite satisfying to see the look on the face when they realize their golden boy isn't quite so untarnished!