Karaoke Forums

Incidently Bigdog,  I even go beyond this...  Last bar I frequented, was a place where I become good friends with the owner, often worked the door, bartended (for an hour here and there) and was encouraged to come..

HOWEVER,  even when I sat at the bar chatting with the staff, or next to the owner, and a customer who did drink top shelf more costly stuff came, or a person came that might even order food.. I gave up my seat, and just stood.... Interesting how the bar owner never seemed to object to that

Common sense as we mature dictates certain things... As  nondrinker, I always gave up my seat assuming someone wanted it... In a sense,  I still never felt I belonged... assuming I wasn't entertaining... Sort've felt like a pimple on the A$$ of progress spending buck after buck on coffee, and soda.... or being given coffee and soda... While the intent was out've respect to me,  It wasn't because I was a total freeloader...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

You can't lay around in a restaurant all day without buying something.   I say kick them out    :yes:  :shock:   to make room for the paying customers.   Size 9 up the behind.  :O   No shoes, no shirt, no money, no service, no singing.  SEE YA>>>this way to the door.   Free load somewhere else.

see, this is the thing Bigdog,  While you say "no singing" in such a case,  I'm wondering (with the exception of KJ who knowingly brings in duds, and yes,  I'm now starting to see your point btw) if it's the entertainer's responsibility to ever make such a determination. However,  I do see the concern assuming knowingly there's a following of free-loaders now..  I was looking at it in terms of "if freeloaders like the person, usually those drinking would enjoy themselves more, so this comes out in the wash", which means recommend the KJ who has a water drinking following, because chances are, if he has a following, he's going to attract drinkers as well, BUT I realize that's not necessarily the case now.. It might be the group he carpools to and from the Jehovah's Witness gathering that met prior to the bar gig

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Profit margins are shrinking too fast to not charge for everything.   It's going to be a matter of survival real quick.   OUR and THEIRS.

What would happen if all of the free water drinkers showed up on the same night?    And the cash register had cobwebs on it by closing time?   And the bartenders made no tips.  

You see,  now not being a "Bar owner", I can only speculate.  But quite honestly, between DUI laws, indoor clean air acts, the economy and a few other factors such as gas prices..

Here's another possible scenerio-
"What would happen if NOONE showed up" ?   (this isn't an unlikely hypothetical question bigdog), They feel more comfortable staying home, and hitting Starbucks, or B&N for coffeehouse type entertainment.. I fear between parts of this nation heading back towards the prohibition period, it's pretty logical as to why alcohol related sales have taken and will continue to take such a hit. Two-fers aren't allowed where I am, Cabaret license (extra hour) almost impossible to get, zoning hates bars, ATF stings them, police play cat and mouse in bar parking lot's... It pretty unfavorable for the bar owner today...

Option ?  Not sure, and I suppose my point is,  if you turn what you are saying around bigdog,  the best the KJ should do (but again in my uneducated opinion given todays situation as opposed to 20 years back when I was the entertainment) is to just bring people... This is a double-edged sword....

Another possible option ?  Juice bars.. or softdrink type entertainment centers that also have bowling, video games, pool, etc...  Lonnie also mentioned (is it espresso, or cappucino type cafe's ??)  something else being a CT yankee, I know nothing about...

I suppose my point is, if the entertainer just brings a following it's the best he can do, and is already likely overextending himself...We are subcontracted to entertain, and hopefully boost the bar's business, by having some following of our own.. but getting people out weekdays, these days, isn't easy as adult entertainers in the more rural and suburban areas, THIS is the problem...alot of reason a person on a whim WON'T go out these days.... Yet to have the type of following that doesn't have the common sense to realize you can't freeload or loiter in a bar... isn't a good thing either.. It's a VERY difficult situation.

Overall question:   What kind of person would expend such capital to open or buy a bar, without taking these very aspects into consideration, and having prepared for them ?   I suppose I also don't know...But if I had answer's for what other's decision's and correct solutions were, riding on their dollar, and I KNEW these were accurate responses without possible remifications... I'd instead be investing in higher risk areas...  Not sticking to moderate risk growth funds...  point being... It's not my business to advise another business person about an area I truly don't have ALL AROUND knowledge in.. When you impliment certain rules, there are pro's but also CON'S... Today five water drinkers and 7 booze drinkers....  wrong choice.... no water drinkers, and 1 booze drinker...

You alienate what few you have, and sometimes the bottomline is,  you really shouldn't have opened the bar at all... It can't survive in your area given extraneous circumstances to begin with, and you are deluding yourself to worry about little things, because realistically, people HAVE TO stick to soft drinks...

unless not only are you the KJ,  business advisor and mircacle worker,  you also are the taxi service picking up drinking customers, and delivering them home...

I think in many locations BIgdog,  we are ALL stuck with a messy hand getting dealt to an area that once paid us fairly.. bar owners especially..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

20 years ago I'd say a solution is "Get a job at a college campus area bar"... Today, that's even shot.... Drinking age was raised to 21..  Yet perhaps softdrink or coffee-bar would do OK.. not sure.  College campus area's can be goldmines for bar owners, however so can any more densely populated area where your bar is within closer proximity to more people

It's the suburban and rural lounges/bars that are hurting

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Cayenne pepper makes a really good drying agent for water glasses.

It doesn't take a genius to look around at the tables to see if they have drinks on them.    But you are right, it is not my decision to make as to who sings and who doesn't.    I won't make that decision, ever.    But if a bartender gave out a pin of a token to all of the drink buyers and you had to display this item on your person, and if you were a singer it had some priority attached to it, as far as being able to sing with it and no singing without it.......  I would have to follow the rules.   Likewise so would you if you wanted to sing.     Pay for your freakin' entertainment, via buying drinks or food.

The idea of having to make a purchase befor singing may not be a bad idea, but it may take some time befor people accept that, unless all the bars did it. Cuz so-and-so's friend can still come with them and sing even though he's broke and they are too cheep  or low on income themselves to pay his way. There's lots of things we as a business can say to that, but it still will not change the mind of a lot in that position. Unless, as I said, all the bars did that. Changes take many years to be accepted in night clubs due to the nature of the customer ( drinking, drunk, party mood, etc.), the non frequency of the customer base ( customer base changes from day to day ), the lack of co-oporation ( knowldge of the others business) between the owners and the entertainment, etc. And to that point, just because someone owns a business, doesn't mean they know what's best for that company success. Specially when that business uses other businesses as partners in making money. The bars that are very successfull, do communicate and co-oporate with the entertainment. Been there, done that, on both sides.

Charging for water for an individual customer is a given. But the price needs to reflect the customer base and things like the local economy. IN the BEST part of town, charge more for the water. In the lower income areas, lower it to a reasonable amount. But yes, bills need to be paid and stock all costs money. I have no problem having worked in service, throwing a free bottle of water to a table that spends a lot of money. But a table where 2 people are taking up a 6 person table, and only drinking water, No, they need to pay for that water. But still some fair price.

And with the DUI laws being what they are, that makes determaning things like prices even harder as now, there are more water and pop drinkers per customer. So now, the prices have to go up to reflect thew loss of sales of the more expensive drinks. The profit margine drops and someone has to suffer. Guess that's us, the entertainment that is paying for it now..

Oh well, such is life..

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"Real life doesn't start untill the music plays." LSK.

Around where I live,  EVERYTHING pertaining to businesses relying on food and alcohol sales are suffering.  I suppose what I'm saying will make more sense if you consider just how big a factor demographics plays on this... In my upper-middle class historic suburban area here in CT... You CAN NOT make a living off of entertaining at a bar today... Few bars have entertainment Sunday, Monday, Tuesday... Some start wednesday... If you are a KJ, you might work at best

wednesday<--unlikely
thursday
friday
saturday
sunday <--unlikely

Some bars are only open wednesday-saturday now...

Here's the thing, Tables being full ?   That happens at best friday (after 11) and Saturday (around 11-2) assuming the bar is VERY lucky..

The bar's that do well DO NOT have, or need KJ's... THese are the yuppy type happy hour joints near an industry... The people accumulate by the bar, talk, and the entertainment might be  nacho's and a TV...

This is why I don't understand (at least in my area) why water and soda prices are even a concern... Entertainment in bars is a dying thing...

You folks seem to make an assumption in your equations regarding compensating for the serving of less alcohol, via "make certain to charge for water and soda".... This is simplifying a much more realistic and complicated problem.... You are serving less EVERYTHING because people aren't going out weekdays, you can't make up for lost alcohol sales..The draw for people at bar's weekdays, might've been "Get out, get away, get out've your head, get a buzz", people went to bars weekdays to mellow out, there are too many factors creating stress now when going to a bar, and as if that's bad enough.... "You can't do this, you can't do that, you can't smoke here, you can't drive out of the parking lot, etc"...So what happens, is People leave work, might go to a local happy hour joint, and at 7 they drive home, and stay home.  Serve less EVERYTHING because people aren't going out... People aren't going to go to a bar for Karaoke around here.. We are here in this room because we either like Karaoke, music, singing, or are employed by bars, but Karaoke scene is not a microcosm of the average younger to middle-aged person... IE..  People around here ARE NOT going to say "Gee, I really feel like singing,  too bad I can't drink, but since I want to go out to sing so much, I'll pay for soda" <---This is not realistic where I live, or ANYWHERE close to me (People either can't afford to be out on a weekday, risk DUI, afford gas, or they are tired from work and have other lives and a full schedule, drinking age now 21, etc, most older people if they like to sing, do it at home, or just don't sing these days) THe bar's around me are YOUNG...there are VERY few bars for middle-aged people in this type suburb~ It's not like the 70's when it was easy at 18 or 20 in a suburb to go out on a whim assuming you were a HS student however, that is another way this candle burns from both ends, the spontaneous light-hearted bar crowd in my day were the UNDER 21 year olds... fake id's often 16... HS kids, or those going to a local community college, etc... The younger spontaneous group can't drink when they socialize at a bar, the older group isn't going out weekdays..

realistically, the fact that I feel like singing TODAY, might be single without ties to a homelife MIGHT make me an exception who goes out on the ocassional weekday, but there's then a HUGE chance I'll get pulled over being one of the only car's on the road... Especially if it's believed I was at a bar (towards the end of the month when the town wants revenue)..

My point is, What you folks assume in your areas, is a fictitious scenerio around where I live.... You DO NOT make money at a bar weekdays around here... People don't go out to "sing", they might however join singer's showcase instead...and make Karaoke scene their "softdrink" bar where they don't have to pay for anything, but they can socialize, and even get shnockered at home....

As bar entertainer's,  we are hurting, and things will likely get worse in smaller towns, without universities nearby... as I stated all we have is some industry, and those bar's don't want karaoke,  they close at 10:30 after the last dinner customer leaves, they did their "bar" business around 4:30-7:30 PM.... Service bar is what keeps busy after that... Just dinner groups..

Conversely,  It's the lower class area's, or poorer socioecon area's that will have a higher percentage of bar dwellers.  NOT the affluent area's.

In an area, where average driving time to a bar is at least 20 minutes (usually more), and again 20 minutes back to your home.... DUI is a huge thorn in the bar businesses sides... THere's no way around it !  It's the single most deadly event to attack the bar businesses..  Now they tell you "And you can't smoke in here once you get comfy in your bar stool" ?      This is a backhanded way of closing bars in area's such as mine... They can't break even..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I just don't understand, this lose lose situation.  Assuming I have no ties, can go out everynight, and EVERYTHING is free...  Two drinks in under two hours.... I can go to jail,  lose my license, have to go to special courses, hire an atty.... YOU CAN'T risk a DUI... So.. How can a bar really make money off've me ?

How exciting,  I go, meet a nice girl, and say.... "Hey honey, you want to come back to my place ?  Hop on my bicycle... I left the car home so I could get up the courage to hustle women, get Xitfaced, and still not worry about getting busted"

Legislature is putting bars in a vice... and crushing them.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

THat does seem to be the way of it. Here, Bar "A" will only have Karaoke once or twice a month now. And even though the customers really want it more, the bar owners don't want it as it costs, plus it brings in non drinkers ( even though it almost doubles the paying customers too ). The customers want it as there is little to do here at night. No movies, no night sports, etc. It's the one activity that the customers seem to have chosen. And here, it was a growing fansy. So it was the thing to do at night. The one they do bring in, will only play music she likes as it is what her friends want. ( a small following ) So the larger group, stays away. We hear this from the singers due to how often we see them and how well known we are. She will mix vocals well for her friends, but miss mix it when it's someone she doesn't care for. Like when I sang at one of her shows. Most of the bar croud knew me and were vocal to us about how hard it was to hear me, and any of the old group that use to sing there.

If I had the money, I would have it at a family rest. also, as the kids here just love it. But they are small town business owners and have prover time and again, that they do not really know what it takes to make money. As the saying goes, It takes money to make money. It's still true today as it was yesterday. But they don't belive this. And they will not take the chance. So the local customer base, knows that the owners are wishy washy, so don't come out to the live entertainment that they do bring in, as it is usually the cheepest they can get. When they do bring in good named entertainment, they do come out in droves.

Localy, it's just poor management. We have a high drinking population. And when they have money, they spend it. But they only go out for the entertainment. If there ain't non, they stay home and drink. DUI stuff is important in thier minds, but the main club that had the good Karaoke and bands, provide rides home to anyone at no charge. The last bar manager was fired because of driving the customers away, but the new one is only a little smarter. Untill someone with some real bar management comes along, I don't see things changing much here.

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"Real life doesn't start untill the music plays." LSK.

Assuming I cared to do it over again,  today if I wanted a job entertaining at a bar,  I'd be trying to get a job with Carnival, or one of the cruiselines... Either that, or move damn close to a big city that's so densely populated, that tuesday nights people pay a $5 cover charge just to meet with one-another and drink.... Those bar's of course aren't as affected....  In fact, in some of these cities rumor has it, the rat's are running into the bar's, to get a wif of "clean-air" now..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Karaoke IN Edmonton Alberta Can. Is VERY popular. Karaoke bars are full almost all nights. Hopefully, in a cpl years, that's where we are going. Wife has to finnish her 2 years of schooling first. I'de also love to do the cruise lines....

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"Real life doesn't start untill the music plays." LSK.

Reading everyones posts - Wow -  All of you make such good points!  And we feel the same pinch.  Doesn't matter what side of the U.S. you are on.  What State, City, or Town.  We have to make it work for all.  So what about making, convincing I should say, the Bar Owners to accomodate the people who are out drinking and spending money to stick around.  They are afraid of the DUI, but don' want to leave.  Offer foods that are readily available.  They want to serve food, but kitchens close at 10:00 or 11:00PM.  Karaoke people stay and drink and EAT.  And especially now with DUI's, these people will munch, and DRINK iced tea, or water in betweeen drinks just to be able to get that last song in.  But food also pays!
I convinced the bar owner to have cheese plates, and or vegetable plates, at a reasonable cost available.  I explained that I know they don't want to keep the fryers on all night, or the grill.  But at midnight, these people will stick around if they just have something to munch on.  HEY!  It's food, absorbs the alcohol, and doesn't take a kitchen crew to cook.  They actually started cheese plates with vegetables after 10:00 for those who wanted it.  Their kitchen  closed at 10:00.  And yes. I made them up table tents to advertise this after 10:00.  The waitresses could throw these plates together in no time.  Makes up for some of the loss, when Karaoke singers think they need to get home because they had too much to drink.
I don't want to see any of my following end up in jail for DUI!  If they want to eat  and drink, then I will speak up and do whatever it takes to let the bar owner know what it will take to keep them.  
After all!  It is making them money.  If it doesn't work, then toss it out.  I will take my lumps.  But they know too, I am working hard to keep a good, consistent clientele for them.

Steven, you need to move to a real state.      LMAO

You are correct Bigdog.  I'd be much happier in a more active location as opposed to this cemetary. It's a great area if you enjoy a high cost of living, poor job market, and being somewhere between NYC and Boston. Besides that, it's easy to die of boredom.

Kjsrbest, something along those lines sounds pretty good.  I think most places around here have a short order cook around, because it seems when people get the munchies around midnight they want something greesy, that's served with a side of some sort've carbs.....  Cheeseburger's and frenchfries, always move somewhat well, and people will buy that...but I think part of the problem is needing to have something else besides an alcohol based business that will draw people out've their homes on a monday or tuesday night, it's not as though you can start Karaoke at 6PM, and have a sing-a-long steak inhaling party.. People eating couldn't deal with Karaoke... When you think about it... If most that go out monday just want football and potato chips, and to be able to have a few beer's or a few drinks and sit at the bar in peace and quiet... Paying you KJ's $250 for 4 hours is hardly practical on a slower weeknight... Sunday, monday, and tuesday seem to be mainly nights people like to just sit around shoot pool, and stare at a television screen.. If I decide I need to get out for a few hours.... leave the house at 10.... and the bar has last call (often whenever it's just too dead to stay open)...sometimes around 1 am... How much can I really drink between 10 and 12 without having to fear being legally drunk ?  perhaps 2-3 good sized beer's tops... or 1 martini ?   1 double 151 coke ? How could the bar make money off've me ? How can they afford their overhead, and meet operating expenses if I'm one of 10 in a large sized bar venue with several rooms and bars in the NOrtheast (capacity of 400+ people) which also means AC in summer, and heat, lighting, employee's, AND entertainment must be paid for ?  Is there a way for these bars to make money weekdays if they aren't smack in the middle of a great location ?  What would draw people out on a weeknight ?  Naturally a thought is singles type book store with quiet entertainment  B&N, Border's, yet they have a guitarist or duo...

On average, in the US... Given the amount of time people now have been exposed to Karaoke, assuming Karaoke might be a fad, and considering there are sites such as this for slow nights, home machines for the serious person who loves singing without having to pay for gas, booze, and deal with other encumbrances (DUI) sunday monday tuesday and wednesday night's ?  

Keep in mind MANY that are at these bar's these night's are local employee's getting off've a second shift job, or a college kid home that's bored and doesn't know where to find activity now that his HS friends have started to go their separate ways... What would draw the 22-70 crowd out've the house on these slower weeknights ? A large venue that also has activities such as tournament darts, billiards, <clearing throat> Lingerie demonstrations.. ?

Coed naked karaoke perhaps ? (In such a case a few of us would end up getting harpooned)...

What would draw people that could also benefit by having Karaoke that's a "dry" activity people would pay for ?  Roller skating ? raquet ball ?  Coed health club with weight room, swimming pool, sauna's, whirlpools and KJ dressed up like Richard Simmon's ?  Some clown would disappear with the microphone, and you'd find the guy fried along with everyone else in the water....  I'm trying to think of some cutting edge idea....Coed badminton and volleyball with a DJ and soundsystem ? Indoor healthclub with Karaoke might not be a horrible idea ?   DUnno...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Bar that has FM transmitting equipment "Radio Karaoke" ?  Public television Karaoke bar ?  Colon hydrotherapy sing-along ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

How far is the transmitter inserted for the therapy?