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Question, as a KJ in the bar would it be a bad idea to ask the bar owner if I could promote the show?

Don't you promote your own company - thus promoting the shows you play?

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Pablo.  I think the best way to put this more succinctly,  Is if the writing is on the wall in plain english, don't look for hidden messages by jumbling the letters. If he asks you a question, assume it pertains to YOU first. Not what he is or is not doing.

I HAVE been asked the question he likely asked you btw.

It was a very short time after I heard,  "Steve, I like you alot, I wish I had more business, but things are so slow now, I think I'm just going to cut entertainment out weekdays,  I have an idea for something different weekends, but stay in touch, I do like you, and will call you soon if I can afford to pay you...OK?"

(OK, he didn't actually say "He liked me alot"..  But he seemed to)  LOL\



Just bring in PEOPLE !   If they ALL drink water,  maybe a few guy's will straggle in with their friends and get drunk to hit on your sober groupies !  and in time ALL will be happy...  Don't try to control stuff so rigidly... Bring PEOPLE... That's all !

I think there's going to be even more of a problem with "soft drink drinkers" as time goes on.... People CAN'T drink and drive... It's not the fault of YOU or the bar owner..  Stuff is getting REALLY tight regarding bar's and DUI laws.. NOONE can afford to get screwed with a DUI driving home... He knows this..  Bring in loads of soda drinkers.... If he gives away ALL his soda for free, that's his choice.... If he charges 3 bucks a bottle of water, that's also his choice... JUST bring people, HE'LL do what HE needs to do...

I know nothing about "Juice bars".  That might be something a few know about here... Yet I'm not sure if that should or shouldn't be coming from entertainment... Perhaps if I saw the problem being "People are afraid to drink",  I might ask him...in the form of a question.... "Do you know anything about soft drink type bars ?   I think perhaps people are afraid to drink and drive"...  Yet I MIGHT be wrong....

Other's might have a better means of bringing this up, or maybe you shouldn't... I don't know.... I can see where alcohol sales declining because of strict laws in suburbs IS a huge problem...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Yes, that is a good point Lonman.

First of all, this post is not intended to be offensive.  I REALLY like the fact that we are discussing this to this degree.  I love hearing the opinions of others, especially when they are so strongly held...

Now then, it seems to me, the original question was what to do about water and soda drinkers... I don't think it was even mentioned whether or not Pablo was asked by a bar owner what to do about them...  The position seems to have been taken that this question was asked of Pablo (which even if not, I think it's good of Pablo to think beyond his booth).  It seems to have morphed into a hidden agenda by a bar owner (who seems to have been looked upon less than favorably) to "hired help" who should know nothing, say nothing....  If that is indeed where it has morphed (and this could just be my perception of what has been said), I would think the "hired help" would have an idea of what is going on with the patrons and a smart business person would use that information.  Additionally, if the water and soda drinkers show up for karaoke and haven't been regulars at the bar before, they are bringing people in the bar..

One more thought floating around in this little mind of mine... If the question were asked of Pablo, it might be wise of him to consider whether or not the real question is about water & soda drinkers; but I would caution him about becoming paranoid and deducing the question really is "Can I afford to keep you?".  By doing so and answering a question that is not asked or becoming defensive about the "job" he is doing may be shooting himself in his own foot...

Fortunately, we have been able maintain good relationships with the bar owners, managers and "hired help". (knock wood).  We are all in BUSINESS  together.  A good bartender/cocktail waitress/cook/back-bar/janitor etc. knows about the business from their position.  Over the years I have had the pleasure of working with many TALENTED "business people" who are viewed, by some, as just the "hired help".  I think it is preposterous for someone to assume that someone in a position of "hired help" would not have a valuable opinion or idea.  I think it would be fool-hardy (sp?) not to ask for information from these valuable eyes & ears.  Many places, corporate and not, have scheduled meetings to go over any problems or suggestions.  

Becoming a bar owner/manager is not like being annointed, it does not mean *you* have all the answers.  If *you* are a successful bar owner then you are likely a successful business person who, most likely, utilizes the skills and ideas of the people you have placed around you...

As to becoming a bar owner, no thanks...  

Susie
KJ/Business Owner/Hired Help/Entertainment/Dog Lover/Parent/Wife.... You get the idea

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I think what has been said here about the perils of advising bar owners on how to operate their businesses is well taken.  Any business owner is going to be reluctant to take advice from someone outside the business.  And very few are likely to listen to advice from someone who is an employee.

Over the past 30 years I have been at various times a banker specializing in lending, a business consultant, and a finance and accounting executive.  During that time I have had the opportunity to work with dozens of small business enterprises.  Some of my employers and/or clients had failing businesses.  Others were barely hanging on.  In each case I was in a position to know much more about the financial workings of the business, what the challenges were and what the options were for getting out of trouble than the owners.  Without exception, I practically had to beg each owner to simply listen to the things I had to say.  In all but one case by the time they were ready to listen to me it was too late.  Options that might have been viable a few weeks earlier were no longer available and the companies eventually failed.

These were all small businesses.  The owners are pretty much used to being "lone rangers" when it comes to gathering information and making decisions.   And they are generally fiercely independant.   The other common element was that all of the owners were truly experts in their respective lines of business.  But none of them understood anything about finance.  

And finance is basically what we're talking about here.  The bar owner wants to know that hiring us is going to be profitable.

This is really an exercise in selling our services.  If you break sales down there are two things you have to know how to do: 1) fulfill needs; and 2) overcome objections.  When an owner complains about the soda/water drinkers he's stating an objection.  We'll never overcome it by telling him how to run his business.  But we can always make suggestions or, even better, we can overcome the objection by restating it in such a way that a solution presents itself.  

A few months ago I was talking to the owner of one of the places we play regularly and we were talking about the fact that there had been a good crowd.  She agreed but said that one of her bartenders had complained that quite a number of people were only drinking water.  She went on to say that it was bad enought that she didn't charge for water but also there was the cost of the ice and washing the glass afterward.

As it happened, the week before I had noticed the place we were playing was serving bottled water.   I had never seen that in a bar before.   So I mentioned it and the fact that it has become common place for people to walk around with a bottle of water.  And it doesn't require ice or a glass.  

The next time I was in that bar they were serving bottled water and they had stopped serving soda from the gun.  Anyone who orders soda there gets a can.  

We haven't had a complaint since.  If I had suggested to this owner that she switch to bottled water I there would have been resistance.  As it was all I told her about was what some of her competition was doing.  She was smart enough to figure out the rest of it.

A secondary benefit was that people didn't tip in there if they got a glass of water.  But for some reason they tip if they buy a bottle of water.

Larry

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"Life is too short for diet soda and lite beer"

What a great discussion.
Yes I am to feel like the hired help, haha.
I guess that comes from the way my current bar owner talks. Through
time I think he has more respect for me and what I have to deal with. Sometimes
we are able to sit and just talk. He'll be complaining about some drunk he has to deal with and I just laugh - I have to deal with the same drunks he does. I bring in the business and he knows it. I never take advantage of that fact, but it does feel nice to have a little respect. I think I had a strike against me to begin with because I am a girl. Some men think woman are brainless. Not all.

As for where the original question came from - I was to understand Pablo was very business minded and was always looking for ways to increase business. The best way I can think of is to promote your business. Looking for ways to better the bars revenue by telling the bar owner to try doing new or different things isn't the way to go. Unless you have that kind of open relationship or he is asking you dead out what he should change.

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There are more idiots than you think that have no business background of any kind.   They have the money and want to buy a "cash income" based business.   Isn't that what all of us KJs wanted?    So having money doesn't mean you know how to run a business.     Most of the bar owners I worked for never bartended before they bought the bar.   Most of them don't bartender after they owned it.    They just show up and pretend to be the owner.   Just being in a court room everyday doesn't make the stenographer qualified to be a lawyer.    You still have to know something about running a bar to make money.   It just doesn't rub off.   It's not floating in the air to cling to your clothes or get sucked into your ears by the vacuum from the empty spot that should contain a brain.   They are STUPID.   Plain and simple.  :whistle:  :yes:

I usually do more promotion for the bar than they do.    I have already taken the letters out to the sign and put "karaoke" on it.    Don't ever give any bar owner credit for being smart.   You can never ASSUME intelligence on their part.   I never expect it.    They haven't let me down yet.    :no:

Some of you will read this and think I being a little hard on them .    NOOOO they deserve everything written.   I have had a bar owner shooting a gun in the air in the parking lot for no reason (in the middle of a very affluent community), I have seen a bar owner that slept in the bar 3 nights straight on a drunken binge,(never went home in the same clothes), I have seen bar owners (Husband & wife) Fighting with each other drunk off their A**,   I have seen bars that people wouldn't go into if the bar owner was there.   Don't give them an inch of credit for being smart business people.

How is this different from dentists, atty's, surgeon's, priests, and even our president's behaviour at times ?   I don't understand how acting like a nut occassionally makes a person NOT a shrewd business person... Since when does a bar owner have to be someone with past character that'd qualify him as a guard at the "Tomb of the unknown soldier" at Arlington ?  How many of our recent president's would even qualify for a civil service position in our country ?  Nutty, and slovenly behaviour at times doesn't mean these are stupid people.... Heck, you've never met some of the pharmacist's around here that "Own their own businesses"... VERY shrewd business people.... Oh yeah.... ALCOHOLIC too.... Sick upstairs does not mean stupid person....  The more professional's you get to know, and the longer the time you spend with MOST "White Collar" exec's, or professional's, you begin to gain faith in humanity.... Almost everyone at some time has a few marbles loose... VERY few exceptions... We are all nuts !


Come to think of it Bigdog,  I'd be more worried about anyone who can survive for any duration in the "Business world", without ending up sick, and substance addicted... Now that'd be one sociopathic individual  LMAO

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Good point Steven, but I have seen PHDs that didn't have the common sense to work a screwdriver.     Look at some of our finest craftsmen.   Never had formal educations.    Look at me, I never went to college.

Almost ever housepainter and plumber is an alcohalic.    I know a lawyer that is an alcohalic.   Are you going to hire the drunken lawyer or doctor or pharmacist?   Most actors are hooked on dope.    Doesn't mean they aren't idiots.    And don't tell me they are doing as good as they should and could be.    If you're impaired from/by anything you aren't at the top of your game, ever.

Ownership does not equal success.     Bar owners are successful to a point, but they could be so much more.    Think about all of the bars you know of in the last 20 years.  How many have been sold repeatedly and/or closed down.  I can think of many around here.   Many are on the verge of failure as we speak.   I can name 4 that are for sale right now.   Probably a lot more, I don't know of yet.

Yep,  My father has a few engineering degree's.... When it comes to hanging a picture on the wall, he has my mom call a maint. guy to push the nail into the sheetrock, even just to Change a lightbulb..... I'm not kidding !!  It was this way when he was younger than I currently am too, so it's not his age, nor is it lack of ability,  many just hate mundane basic stuff




Of course Bigdog,  Alcoholic is just a right of passage or another "milestone" in a western males life... Everybody know's "real men" are ex-addicts  LOL

a few generations back my relatives were painters, and scaffold workers Bigdog.. Which is sort've strange considering I get heightsick above a 2nd story building...It's understandable why painters would have a high rate of alcoholism,  horribly boring work, being stuck in warm rooms with paint fumes, and nothing to look at except walls... stuck with your head and thoughts during depressing times... No intellectual stimulation...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

As a former Bar owner, I can tell you that you do not want to have the "free" water drinkers in your place just to fill up tables. If they are coming into your place to enjoy the entertainment, then they need to be paying like everyone else. I found that these "free" water drinkers usually were very demanding of the bartenders and waitresses and often times would hit up other customers to buy them drinks. I have nothing against anyone who doesn't drink alcoholic drinks, but don't expect to get your non-alcoholic drink for free and remember that it takes the bartender or waitress just as much time to wait on you as it does to wait on the alcohol drinkers---so please tip them.

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Maybe we should print something up or have tokens or something that every singer has to give the KJ.   They would get one everytime they buy a drink.   Sing a song turn in a token.     At least you would know they are supporting the entertainment.  

Hmmm, then I think our clubs have it backwards.. Some clubs, you get a shooter if you sing a karaoke song..
  We have a high, low-income population here, so we have more water drinkers than is normal. Many will sit and nurse a bottle of water the whole night. I think that's the main reson for the high water price here, and even though I may not like it, I think the reason makes it some what fair. But I would rather see a per person minimum purchase. ( designated drivers excluded ) I think that would be a fairer system, and, it would end up costing the the customer the same over all, wile keeping the per bottle at a fair price.

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"Real life doesn't start untill the music plays." LSK.

I suppose like everything location has ALOT to do with it.  Few adults in my area actually believe they can go to any restaurant/bar take up a table and keep ordering water that's ISN'T bottled... People know better, they realize you are bound by "renting space" to spend money.... Sure some are low class, and in such a case, the waitresses are instructed what to do.... It's really not a tough situation.. Never known a bar owner that doesn't have people on staff that handle this on a case-by-case level..  It's never been a HUGE problem around here... People are bred abit better..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steven, have you ever been poor at some point in your life?     Because of a crisis or illness.    If I was low on money, I stayed at home until I had some.   I didn't go out and hang around in a place acting poor, sucking on free water.    In the old days the owner would toss your a** in a heartbeat.    Taking up room for the paying customers.    So why do so many idiots think it's ok to just hang around and suck up the not for free entertainment?    While sucking on one free water, all night long.    Hit the freakin' bricks deadbeat.    Start tossing them and they will think twice before the next time.   If you don't have the money stay home.  Everyone else has had to do it in their life too.

If you talk to some of the karaoke singers, they will drink some, but switch over to water for their throats.     Right or wrong that doesn't have to be free water.    People, normal responsible people, are worried about getting DUIs.    This is all the more reason for the bars to charge for everything.    If all of the drivers suck on free water all night, the bar will be very short lived.   If you add entertainment to the mix then every ounce of liquid in the bar has a pricetag reflecting the entertainment fee.   Nothing in this world is free.   Why should it be so in a bar, providing you with entertainment?

Bigdog,  Yes,  I spent time living on the streets.  I know what it's like to be destitute..  I also know there are places at times I don't belong for whatever reason..  An example might be, if I know I have a VERY contageous flu, or infection, and a boss insists I come into work,  I won't assuming I'm working around food (just an example)... If I must appeal it, and fight my decision that was made out've my own personal ethics..  I'll do-so


In this particular case, While no longer desolate, I can't and don't drink alcohol... Haven't since 1980... When a waitress refuses to take money for my diet coke, or club sode with lime.. She get's the cost of the drink as a tip on the spot... NOBODY in a business setting likes "free loaders"... I'm aware of this...

Which reminds me,  I really should be paying for my membership on KS...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

This wasn't just directed at you, buddy.  :no:

I understand Bigdog,  Yet I don't understand how people don't realize (as you say) that when you go into a setting that operates charging for drinks, and that's it's sole means of revenue, food and drink.... "loitering" is acceptable...  It's clearly wrong... While a person need not drink... A person MUST spend some amount of money, or offer something to the business...


(Checking to see if Phill takes foodstamps)

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".