Karaoke Forums

The question big dog brought up before was HIS concern as entertainment bringing someone into a bar who has a following of water and soda drinkers.....

The answer was similar tho.... If the KJ is good, why not recommend him even though a few in his following are duds ?  Basically, If the KJ YOU KNOW is good, you are recommending him, and not worrying about the skintags hanging off his arm.. ..

Don't try to save the world.... The owner needs entertainment, not someone who's an all around "God"... Assuming you are an all around God,  You are wasting your talent getting so little reimbursement, few will appreciate your godly ability !

In this specific case,  the Bar owner has a question, (Pablo) entertainment doesn't have an answer....  "I don't know" is how I would handle it....  "If you would like me to see what I can find out, I will.... Do you want me to ask about water and soda prices for you ?"  IF the guy says yes.... and is happy with the response after Pablo says...

"They told me this in an internet Karaoke room".....

and the bar owner changes his philosophy regarding freebies based on "KS told my KJ"...

*I* have ALOT to learn about business

This is essentially why I feel this is absurd..

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Even in the food industry, especially among bar type owners in my day Suzie, They did not like unsolicited advice *especially* from their entertainment regarding "This is what you should do to improve your revenue", I was told a few times, and overheard, "Mr know-it-all is trying to tell me how to run my business", When a bar owner asked me something regarding his business being slow, there was always a hidden agenda to that question... perhaps, "I can't afford to pay you much",  "Why aren't you bringing me more customers?", in such a case their WAS an inuendo, and it wasn't regarding "His end"...Those I knew that tried to get TOO personable, MOST of the time, in-turn were NOT respected.. Their advice was considered "cheap" advice from someone who doesn't know... People respect those that do what they were hired to do WELL,  and stay out've other areas UNESS specifically requested to find out these things..In the business world even bosses lose respect for what comes free, or those that "Work for respect, and do more because they are nice people",  it's ashame, but corporate and bar aren't always much different... Business is sometimes business... Yet I agree, a few times maybe not. IF Pablo was asked to ask people around about "Drink prices" freebies, etc... That's a different story, if he is doing this on his own, he's doing it incorrectly, and I can assure him, the bar owner is going to consider his advice.... for what it's worth... NOT MUCH...Those I knew, ALL of them that did this type thing, would end up NOT being appreciated, assuming the bar owner doesn't want to know this from Pablo, this can turn against someone much of the time... Sticking your nose somewhere it's not meant to be is job suicide... If his boss asked him to research THIS particular area for him... Fine, but assuming such.... Pablo isn't being resourceful... He should be doing footwork locally, not in a KS bboard...

All I'm trying to say, is if you are hired as entertainer, be careful NOT TO BE a busy body !..  If Pablo wants to open a bar of his own, and is asking something in a round about way,  I can understand that... Yet still, what I tell him isn't of help for him... He never asked for "Bar owners" advice, and our locations...

It's always best to respect your boundaries, and not go spreading yourself thin,,, THe boss WILL lose respect for him... That's as honest as I can be.

Did I mention in MOST aspects of the business world, there's H*ll ?  I'm not too fond if it.. I've seen it  :shock:

In brief:  Don't be overly zealous to be too much to too many... expend such energy, and free time doing what YOU were hired to do VERY WELL instead, that
takes ALOT of time.  Additionally, if you are asked something, and you don't
have an answer... it's ok to say "I'm not sure", or ask prior to delving... Never try
to be TOO much.. It backfires.

SADDEST thing I've learned in politics, and the business world... VERY SELDOM, does a person who saved another's business (assuming this even happens), get their share of gratitude, and appreciation.  In most cases, someone else takes credit for YOUR effort, and the boss thrives, carries on, and in two years you are forgotten...Best way you can help your boss increase revenue is to MARKET YOUSELF !,  anything else, will be kicking a dead horse.

(My guess is a few of we older folks from the "Hard knocks, school of business"  "Hell Campus".... concur with this)

If you want your boss to love you Pablo,  expend THIS energy recruiting 30 people that come to your KJ show at his bar... EVEN if 15 of them are water and soda drinkers.... He will love you for it !...  Forget about advising him on his end.. Bring him more customers to be with YOU in his bar.  To try anything else...Isn't smart in a business sense.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I'm with Steven on this. I know some bar owners and they will not do anything to change or make better their situation. I'm hoping one of them is ready to retire so I can buy his club and get it back to what it was in the past.

Chuck,  ALthough we look around at our voting public, watch the new's and see ALOT of stupidity in our nation..

When it comes to businessmen SAVING their dollar, and their own A$$..... There's almost ALWAYS smarts there someplace.... Nobody in business is THAT stupid... I just can't believe it...

I'd be interested just for Ha-ha's, knowing the average IQ, of business owners.... and how it compares to the national average...  These can't be foolish people MOST of the time.  Sustaining, and maintaining a business is VERY hard work.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

After 14 years of karaoke I feel that I know what works in bars and what doesn't as far as making money on a karaoke night.   I think I have seen every stupid thing a bar owner could do to hurt their wallets and reputations.    That makes me over qualified to tell them.   Most of them never took and passed basic bar owning 101.

1. People want good, fast service.
2. Clean restrooms.
3. Bar owners that don't act like jerks.
4. Good food
5. Air and heat that works like it should.
6. Reasonable drink prices.
7. Good entertainment.
8. Safety.
9. No A**holes and trouble makers.
10. Fair rotation.
11. Good song selection.
12. Good sound.
13. Pleasent knowledgeable KJ.

And yes if you were screwing things up the bar owner would tell you how to run your business.   They don't have to tell me how to make money for them.  They need to listen, more.

I have only ever had a few to tell me to move some singers in the rotation.   I don't ever remember a bar owner actually telling me how to run my business.   But I'm making money for them inspite of themselves.    I will let them know how I run my business.   I never do anything that will hurt a bar owners business.  They seem quite capable of ruining it themselves, without my intervention.    

If they are basing your pay on how the cash register looks at the end of the night or if they have a slow night and expect you to take a cut then, I most definately want to be able to tell them what is wrong and how they should be doing things to increase the business.

I'm building your reputation.
This is telling them how to run their business.

1. They need to advertise me being there, on a regular basis.  
2. Not interupt a scheduled karaoke night for a sporting event.  
   This insults the regular paying karaoke cliental.
3. Handle problem people in an expedient manner.
4. Have quality servers.
5. Have the temperature correct.
6. Don't make me play favorites for you.

WHEN I AM PLAYING A BAR, I TREAT THAT BUSINESS AS IF I OWNED IT.   I have mopped up spilled drinks (Safety) and put toilet paper and paper towels in restrooms.   I have spotted trouble brewing and given them a heads up.   I have spotted water leaks and running toilets.    I have told waitresses to clean tables for people that wanted a clean place to sit, before they left.   I have told waitresses to give people menus and take their food or drink orders. (Because they were too busy not doing their jobs.)    I show people empty tables and chairs.   I feel like the entertainment manager and the bar manager.    I'm the best non employee these bars never had.

The club I'm looking at can never fill up and hasn't in a few years. I don't know if it's the problem we had with TABC, or if he just chased them off.

These days he is telling the karaoke jocks to never speak except to announce new singers and a few other things that seem backward to me.

I've never run a bar but it must relate in some ways to running a restaurant which I have done, for a few years.

That club used o be packed 7 nights a week. SRO on weekends and good luck finding a place to park. These days he can't ever get even half full on weekday nights. weekends he can get 2/3 full but that is with less tables too.

He took the fun out of the club, really. I worry that demographics might be an issue. I need to do some research to see if it is worth the risk and the headaches. From all the new homes being built close by it looks like he might just be missing out entirely.

$2.75 for a bottle of beer is not just a little high? With gas prices going up (to closer to what the rest of the world pays) he should consider a change there for sure.

Because,

*daycare for testosterone charged 200 lb kindergarteners 101
*Alcohol and it's affects on the brain 101
*Operating a business that thrives on revenue generated from alcohol sales    
  during days reverting back towards prohibition 101
* Operating a business that's a luxury during wartime 101
* Your business and the United States Recession  101


are VERY tough courses !

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

We are looking at the club I mentioned. I want to own it long enough to build up to where it should be and then sell it as a turn-key operation. 2 years max. I have been a regular there for about 14 years and have seen things that worked and things that bomb.

If the demographics are good and I can convince the guy to sell, I could do quite well I think. Being 41 I am still young enough to consider good ideas especially whaen it is free.

BTW- This bar owner isn't doing most of the stuff on Bigdog's list above.

I have said this many times, yes many many times. WHY DON'T YOU KJs BE THE BAR OWNER? You then have 7 days a week of gig nights. You then don't have to deal with stupid and moronic Bar owner.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Jian,  My own feeling is the bar owners are NOT actually stupid and moronic.. It's always easy on the outside to spot wrongdoing and problems.. Sort've like the "Sidewalk Foreman".. Easy to see the mistakes... Yet in reality the bar owners MUST be doing alot right... Heck, they can afford to pay bigdog a pretty decent salary.. How foolish can they be ?

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

That is what I am thinking about doing.

It sounds like a really good idea but I need to do a little research first.

Exactly Chuck,  That's my point.  Most that open a bar, and are ready to commit having at least several years capital ready to launch the place, HAVE done their research.It's not a blind walk when you invest such money in expenses. They don't concern themselves with things such as "Should I charge for water KJ?".. These people have delt with inspectors, zoning hearings, many types licenses, Town officials, and others in the restaurant business,,,, These aren't shlocky kids without life experience, and just an associates degree in art..... Someone helps them... You can't be a fool and have a business that's survived any duration... Unless your father has SO much money,,, you can write the thing off, and just love the headaches...

Realistically, assuming a bar owner has had a business 5 years (at least) How many first didn't bartend someone elses establishment and either buy it, work in a similar business in the capacity of manager, or at least asst manager or chef... How many assuming they started their business with minimal knowledge didn't have a good manager working for them that DID have sufficient ability ? A kitchen chef and waitor and waitresses with knowledge ?  These businesses can't run themselves with Beavis and Butthead behind the wheel.. You don't walk cold to a bar and say here's 750K,  I want to buy your bar,  I'm 18, live with my parents, never been to a bar before, and dropped out've 4th grade.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Good point. The people that are my partners on the venture are very much behind me in being careful first. I hope they won't mind me coming to the one day and saying "let's just put it behind us."

I am looking at it for the money. I want to get it going to its full potential and sell it. I don't need to make a life there.

Chuck,  anyway to check out profit and loss statements going back, and chart them ?  I wonder how all these laws now are affecting bars nationally... Must be tougher to get customers these days...Has the indoor clean air act hit your area of Texas yet ?   That's got to be tough too...  Although your climate is easier to work with that than the NorthEast

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

PandL statements even poorly kept should tell me a lot. It will have to be one of the last things I look at behind demographics. I don't want the owner to know of my interest until the last minute.

We almost bought that place about 12 years ago. Back then we wanted to own it for a length of time. Now I want to buy it and sell it when it is running well.

You are the only one here that planned to go that way. I just hope more KJs here will follow your way. Just think, why would a KJ want to have 5 or 6 set up if job is hard to find? Create the job and be a bar owner. Thats the way to diversify, If you are relay good then you already have your followers to fill up the bar.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Jian,  How many bar owner's,  do you think could afford to be their own entertainment steadily and bring in revenue from the bar, adjunct to their job as a DJ/KJ at that bar ?  My guess is most here that could afford to buy the lounges that are currently able to afford to pay them a halfway decent salary, would probably realize WHY people that are currently getting their wages as KJ.. are getting cut from the budgets during tougher economic times in many locations....and rather than entertain,  These owners who were once KJ's, would have too much in the way of administrative responsibilities to attend to, such as filling in for their sick bartender, getting back from a late night emergency produce run to the 24 hour stop & shop.... or wanting a night to chill with the wife and kids..... They'd likely be looking for affordable entertainment, and trimming the fat themselves... Having worked bars as entertainment, I know around here (at least) I'd not be able to sit at a piano and play for 10 minutes without tho phone ringing for me as owner...assuming that were the case.... It doesn't really work... Those that entertain, would realize they need to be attending to keeping the doors open, and the place functioning...THat's more important... If I'm the owner playing the piano, and in the middle of the song, I have to excuse myself because some drunkard 17 year old, is swearing at my doorman telling him he's actually 45 years old, and showing a fake ID of his mother on an out of state license.... How can I entertain plus attend to what's important as an actual owner ?  How can I play a song, and have someone singing along when I'm called into the kitchen because some lady is choking on her steak ?  and her husband cut his lip on his water glass ? which is chipped


The problem here is,  ask 25 dishwishers in a kitchen how many think they could easily run the bar they are employed in for a week without too many hassles, and see how many likely say.... "Piece of cake".  It's so easy from the outside looking in to feign expertise, and nose into another person's business when in reality FEW have a clue how to run another person's business.... Or even their own once it's their neck and dollar on the line, and their own invested interest at stake... When it's another person's dollar, it's easy to spend it...and be a financial advisor too


Realistically,  MOST bar owners look as fondly at me advising them about business issues, as you with children look at me (no children) advising them how to raise their kids.... It's not something I should be sticking my nose into.. It's NOT easy to run a bar business today !  I think it's safe to make such a statement. MANY extraneous factors going against the grain..

While everyone on the internet is an expert, they aren't the type of expert's I'd be asking how to "Run a business" assuming I needed to know my info was coming from a credible source...  I suppose I should start a thread...


"How to fill your own teeth with a dremel by DDS Kappy."   It saves money !!!!

Some questions aren't best answered in internet general fun bboards... such as Emergency medical questions,  How to take care of a wife and kids, How to run a business, are on that list of critical real life situations few here are qualified to answer...

I really don't understand how some KJ's boss would care about what *I* (mr. internet nobody)  suggests regarding "Charging for water".  Am I a bar owner ?  Nope..  Entertaining kid's playing music and letting them sing at a bar, is a piece of cake, in comparison to actual duties and decisions an owner has to make, and situations with possible legal ramifications assuming wrong judgment is used... So many don't seem to think this thru... We play music, and attract people that like what we do,,,,, Let the experts take care of themselves... Believe me, they are MUCH better qualified..

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Wow, good dicussion.

I'm not really sure how the thread started attacking Bar owners and KJs that offer advice though.

Let's assume the Bar owner and the KJ owner have intellegence.  Bar owner sees Karaoke night not delivering desired revenue.  Seems to me a no-brainer to ask the KJ for some input.  If the KJ says "I dunno", then that doesn't give me very much confidence in them - Maybe time to get a KJ who cares I make money too.

Second item
Say you want to sell yourself to a bar owner as a KJ.  Don't you think in your sales pitch you should have something to combat "Well that just brings in those darn water and soda drinkers"

If you look at the thread starting post, and the post on which is referred to that this is an offshoot, the point was "How as KJs can we help in that area", not "Look out - KJs are taking over the bar".  Seems to me one hand washes the other in this type of relationship.

Just wanted to set the record straight, as some thought I was going to have the bar owner up against the wall every night telling them how to run their biz!!!!

Unless the bar owner or manager asked my opinion I usually don't give it.
Now if I've known the bar owner for a while and have a sense for how he will take the suggestion i may offer my 2 cents, but with my experience they don't want the hired help telling them how to run their business. It is sad, but true. They almost act like your being a pest by suggesting a way to better their business.
You are totally right though if they ask me a question I better know a good answer.

I did use a suggestion about bottled watered to the owner. Believe me I was careful how I approached it.

_________________
[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Not attacking.  Offering very honest advice. Just do your best to deliver YOUR END of the business, it's all he's paying you for, and likely ALL he expects you to be an expert at. If he asks you, "Why aren't more people here ?", or "Why aren't I generating more revenue?", he's VERY unlikely asking you about water and soda prices, nor does he want to hear that as an answer, it's an absurd response to be totally honest. He wants MORE business coming thru his doors..  If 20 more people come to see YOU and 6 just drink soda, believe me, he'll be VERY happy assuming the other's are buying a drink or two, to give a few soda's away......... Don't grasp at straws when the question is likely inferring, "Is it really worth me keeping you for these hours, and paying out X amount of dollars, when I'm not generating revenue from having ENTERTAINMENT." To assume he's asking you about drink prices, or bar management is a NO-NO !   Don't get into his mismanaging EVER, unless he specifically comes to you for help regarding BAR MANAGEMENT issues, and asks, "DO YOU think *I* as manager should be doing something different?". If he specifically asks "Pablo, can you find out for me if I should be charging for water and soda", that's one thing, but you can be certain, asking on the internet isn't the best means of finding out info regarding his bars specific needs ? I would bet you money, he does NOT want to hear from you "This is what you should do as a restaurant manager"..



Exactly !   He's not asking you a question at all.. What he's doing is telling you in a backhanded way,  "Pablo, Why aren't I generating business, YET PAYING YOU to entertain so few people ?  I'm losing money".  This is what I believe you should be seeing.  Anything else is rationalizing, and I saw this.  This is why I felt it's best to call you on it.. No offense meant, believe it or not, I see a problem, and I'm trying to help  LOL



Nope... It's really more of a no brainer... He want's more people to come to his bar on the night he's paying for entertainment.... Plain and simple.. He wants results, *more people coming thru that door to make it worth his while paying you*  not advice about HIS management.



NO,  I'm sorry but I think YOU are missing a very important point. YOU DO NOT help in THAT area unless he asks you SPECIFICALLY for *managerial assistance regarding HIS END*. As a KJ you help by doing your job as "A KJ" Only !  If you are to expend energy, GET MORE PEOPLE to sing on nights you are there. As a businessman, UNDERSTAND what's actually going on, and busy yourself with YOUR business...  Not his...

If he wants a dentist, and asks you for suggestions, and you know of one, suggest one.. If he wants help about bar prices, and asks you "How much do you think I should charge for soda"... If you don't know, TELL him someone that might have a REAL answer..... HOWEVER,  if he is likely implying to you

"Why am I not generating enough to make it worth my while paying out for entertainment" ?, DO NOT assume he wants to hear..

"This is how YOU should be running your business,  you should be charging for water and soda". Even if you sugar coat that response, I'd resent that as a manager coming from you...

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".