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It hasn't where I know it's been implemented.  As long as they are getting an equal value for their money, the ones that planned on spending in the first place don't have a problem with it!

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Why in the context of a bar entertainer are you concerned about softdrink vs alcohol consumption, and that area of bar revenue ?   I'd say if you are a bar owner, find out from other local establishments how they deal with this issue.  I'd think if a bar owner is concerned about this, water would be bottled water which he charges for, Soda would be at least $1.75.  Coffee, similar.. Cover charge, my own feeling is, that depends on type of bar, and demand.. That in some cases can be like shooting yourself in the foot..  On a slow night, you can't get a cover in some of these suburban bars, It's tough enough to get people anyway.. The owner should be charging for soda, coffee, and everything served.. Occassionally they can allow a person a freebie or three, assuming they know the person is there to pickup an employee, and doesn't want to be there, or if the person is obviously not into the place, but is a designated driver...and the bar is making money off've those the person has shuttled to and from his establishment... but unless you are a bar owner, This is a bar business question better suited for bar management/ownership, and that aspect of the business...  Depending on type of bar, how fast or slow the bar is.. What type of competition is down the street, I wouldn't wish to venture a guess.. Answer depends on so many factors... If it's thursday night, and none of the three patrons want to drink liquor,  I'd say cover charge isn't the best solution...

A bar is a business, it's there to make money.  I personally don't drink, but I have enough common sense to know, that if I'm going to take up space at the bar on a Friday night, I damn well better be paying at least close, to what those on adjacent stools are paying.. Bar's don't like, or need loiterer's...  I go and pay for perhaps... Ambience, the stench of stale beer, people singing out've tune... Trying to find a secluded region far away from others so I can people watch... whatever.. bottomline is, I'm at THEIR money-making establishment, and I'm expected to buy something, not just "Hang out" there.. Even when invited, because I know an owner, I'll drop money... otherwise I'll hang in here with you other cheapskates

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

It's a cover charge you can cash in.    :yes:

Basically!

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The main thing bar owners (or managers) do is give away refills.  CHARGE FOR EVERYTHING as if it's your first dirnk!  If your drinking water or coffee, then you should be charged for every drink you get be it a refill or something else.
I do support the designated driver program & if there was someway to prove that you are then they shouldn't be popped for every drink IMO, but proving it is the key - how would one go about doing that?

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Sure,  but remember, depending on how business is... "Cover Charge" is an ugly word to some...  IOW... Thursday night... driving home from 2nd shift job... person figures on a whim.  "I'll stop in bar for 15 minutes to have one beer, and head home...."  Bar makes perhaps 4 bucks, figure a draught and tip, the intent is to hit and run.. Not stay.. work the next day...person thinks... wait, I just want to go there on my way home, to grab a quick beer.... I'm not paying a "Door fee"... for what ? That means I pay 5 bucks when there are only 10 people there, I don't care about the entertainment anyway.. In fact, I wish it wasn't there, I'm just dropping in to chill and have ONE drink.. (which often becomes two)   What right do they have to charge me to get in ?  Who do they think is doing who a favor here ?  I'll go to the little hole in the wall next door... I just want ONE...screw that cover charge.. Too formal.  I'm going on a whim...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Excellent question,  IMO you can't play Sherlock Holmes and alienate your patrons because they say "I'm the designated driver"... I suppose you have to trust people, and assume (hope) they don't exploit such a program... I have been a designated driver plenty of times *I can't drink anyway*... Yet still, I'm going to have fun, and enjoy myself just as others that are drinking... I still should pay the bar something, and I always have paid for my soda... So I run up about 8 bucks bar tab, in a few hours, while the others pay 15.. I'm still there to have fun.. I suppose it depends.. If a table of 4 are there, and 3 are roudy, and drinking, while one look's bored (@$%&#!), it's safe to assume he's a designated driver assuming he says, "NOthing for me, I drove these whacko's".. I suppose in time, with regs, the barbacks, tenders, doormen will know who's real, and who's exploiting the system...

Some of you would have a better idea... I've never been to a soft-bar.. or a place that only serves soft stuff ?  How do they deal with this ?  Obviously they don't let all that go and don't drink "Slide" because that becomes moot... Designated driver at a soft-drink joint of course doesn't matter, and in a sense the designated driver is doing the business a favor, or is he ?  It get's pretty intricate..  How far should a bar extend itself to designated drivers ?  100% ????  I never pondered this question before..  

My guess is this topic would be great for a restaurant and bar management thread. Yet even-so,  I'm sure it depends on demand for that bar.... Age bracket.. Night of the week, etc... and competition down the road you might drive your customer's to by doing the wrong thing. Only times a bar around here has a cover charge is when they have live entertainment they have to pay... I'm not sure if redeemable cover would be viewed any less harshly by some on a slow night, than standard cover..Sometimes the tiniest matter of principle alone, will alienate a few you don't wish to alienate assuming business isn't thriving to begin with

JMO based on my location solely btw

Yet in your individual locations, that might be the answer !  I don't know.. Too many factors, this isn't a simple question !  Different bars and different settings must approach certain situations differently.  Also extenuating circumstances always... Let's say I'm a bartender... A guy says,  "His wife has to take a pill, can she have some water".. "She has a bad throat, can she have some water".. Naturally I'll give them water...  However if every week, she's popping pills 3 times an hour,  I'd be curious to know the nature of her medical condition.. Always circumstances when the business should extend itself... Always times people will exploit such a system too.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

You're right Kap, what an individual bar can do depends on a variety of factors including location, competition, etc.

In the Milwaukee area there is one venue left that is what I would call a "club".  They feature live bands on weekends and have a cover charge.  The place is nearly always full.  People are used to paying a cover charge and they are willing to do so.  People go there for a reason so nobody there just casually walks in off the street for one drink before they go home.

All of the other area venues are bars/taverns.  This busniness has changed radically over the past 15 years because of the ever more restrictive DUI laws in Wisconsin.  Regardless of the type of entertainment these places may feature there is a mix of people there.  Some are there for the enterainment and some are there just becuase it's their neighborhood place.  They could care less about the entertainment.  If karoke is the featured entertainment (many places have live bands and karaoke night's as well) the crowd can be sorted into 3 classes: 1) neighborhood regulars; 2) people who come to sing; and 3) people who won't sing but come to listen.  Regardless of the group the patrons fall into, in many cases they aren't going far from home.  The days when people used to follow bands wherever they went are pretty much over around here.

What most bars do around here is to increase drink prices when there is enterainment.  The increase is often around $ .50.  That doesn't seem to drive people off.  

My knowledge of the karaoke scene is pretty much limited to three places.  Two also feature live bands and one only has karaoke.   In the places that feature both, soda and water drinkers, seem to only be a problem on karaoke nights.  The karaoke only place also seems to get a fair number of people who come to sing but not to drink.  I guess the people who come to see bands are, by and large, drinkers.

Cover charges in bars/taverns are pretty much unheard of.  A friend of mine plays in a band that plays for the gate about 75% of the time.  They are one of the few bands that really have a pretty large following.  But they often don't get paid very much because, except for the people who come specifically to see the band, no one is willing to pay the cover charge.

That's just the way it is in this area.  Unless or until someone opens up another club where a cover charge is standard, I don't see cover charges as a way to successfully make up for income lost on water/soda drinkers.

There is a comedy club in town that does two shows a night.  The early show is "free" but there is a two drink minimum and the drinks are very expensive.  The second show there is an admission charge only and the drink prices, while high, are not way out of line with the rest of the city.  Attendance is always much higher at the second show.  People percieve the two drink minimum as a rip-off.  Even if their total tab is the same.

Around here, I think the only solution is to price coffee, water and soda so that the gross profit margin on each sale is equilvalent to what it is with other beverages.

Larry

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"Life is too short for diet soda and lite beer"

Noticed in the discussion that a points are being made that as entertainers there is no need to be concerned about bar revenue.

Guess since I come from a business backround, it was just second nature to me.  After all if you work for a corporation, aren't you concered about the health of the company you work for since they provide your livelyhood?

It is also my experience that bar owners/managers will come to YOU as the KJ and ask WHY the bar is not making money.  Seems to me as a business owner (KJ) I ought to have a good answer.  

Just wanted to set the stage for why I opened the thread.

P.S.  Very good discussion and ideas on this thread.

Good points but remember that most bar owners are total idiots.  Concerning running the business and making money.  :yes:   Even if you tell them everything that could be done differently to increase their bottom line, nothing will be done.   They will do everything in their power to destroy everything you try to build.   It must be some kind of law of nature regarding bar ownership.   You need to use a bigger whacking stick.  

I think bar owners get so tired of hearing from everyone in the bar what they should
do and not do they put up a fense in their minds to any suggestion at all. They figure it is their pocket book and they'll do what they want. Which is usually save a buck to lose a 100.

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Kind of like karaoke owners - my show, my way?   Where do we have the right to tell any bar owner how to run their business?  We sure as Hell have demonstrated that we wouldn't want them to tell us how to run ours?!?!?  I say once we all actually OWN a bar, then we may be able to have some say, but until then, they run their business - we run ours!

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I think we both need to know more of what goes into the others business. I have worked in bars, rest. and as a musician. So I do understand. The clubs that are doing well, do so because there is good comunication with all involved, and all are OPEN to the comunication. Barring local economy disasters, and as long as there are not TOO many clubs in one area, there shouldnt be the problems there are. Poor quality business owners is a major part of the prob. And, that happens to be one of the hardest things to over-come as competition. Specially in the entertainment business, regardless of the type. Always has been, just not as bad as it is now. But I believe, when ever a type of business takes off, so many want to cash in on it, that the quallity goes down due to fly by night companies starting up, and it takes some time before that corects it's self. And for the most part, it usually does correwct it's self just through natural selection. Eventually, a bad business will go under. But on the way, good ones do to. Just the nature of the beast.. Or so it seems..

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"Real life doesn't start untill the music plays." LSK.

I think it's only natural for a KJ to be concerned with the bottom line regarding sales.  If it weren't for the sales at the bar, we don't have a job.   Fortunately we don't have a whole lot of water & soda drinkers (knock wood) but the ones we've seen over the years either fade off or bring friends...  

I do like the idea of a token at a bar that is purchased at the door if it is a hopping place with a huge crowd, otherwise I see the point about dropping in for one beer BUT I don't see that kind of a bar as one where someone drops in to unwind....

I guess we're fortunate, the majority of bar owners and managers we have worked for have NOT been imcompetent (sp?), even the ones we no longer work for...  AND, as has been stated, who are we to tell them how to run their business when we won't have them running ours..  I would only offer suggestions to a bar owner or manager re: soda & water drinkers if I were asked...  



How odd, I was thinking the same thing and a bartender once stated that she didn't mind the soda & water drinkers as it put cars in the parking lot....

Susie

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It's not your position to be advising a "Bar owner" how to better run his business.. If you are that skillfull a management consultant, you should be an independent Management Consultant making FAR more money than you are as his employee.. If a bar owner came to me, asking "Why isn't the bar making money",  I would wonder the actual meaning of his question.  Is this a round-about way, of him saying.. "I don't feel YOU are attracting enough customers" ?... I would still not think this means the owner is receptive to hearing from *ME*, (his entertainment),  "This is what you should do business-wise on your end.... Rescale your restaurant prices... Drop me once every two weeks and hire live band asking $5 cover, and have 50 cent draughts,  Close down sunday and monday, and don't open untill wednesday, cut the extra hour and close at 2 AM...Charge for water and soda"... HE already KNOWS whether or not he can get-away charging for various things, and risks involved...remember, there's always RISK involved in this type situation, and HE KNOWS this already.. He would be asking consultants in his profession for help. He'd be surveying other local lounges success at doing just that, charging for water and soda by asking THEIR waiters, bartenders, and managers that come in... NOT you for statistical info and sage, assuming he needed managerial help in his area of business... Are you from a bar ownership business background ? Do you have skill in setting up bars and lounges ?

I don't think he will respect that free info from *YOU*..  A bar owner who is looking for business advice doesn't go to his "Entertainment" asking for info on how to work HIS END of the business..... You aren't qualified.... It's easy to make suggestions as to how other's should run THEIR business, when we advise them on THEIR dollar.... We don't have the invested interest.... If he's in a crises, and wants to know about business aspects of the bar business, he isn't going to take what a KJ says as Gospel... He will talk to pro's in the business end of the bar, that can trouble-shoot, and survey.. and have statistics..... YOU as entertainer are not that person, sorry, but that's the truth....  YOu are not a restaurant nightclub management consultant with a vast knowledge, it's safe to assume he already know's more than he is hearing from you anyway... How are you to know what he should do about water and soda drinkers ?   There's a way to impliment EVEN THAT.... It's not all or none...

If you want to help him, ask other restaurant manager's, and owners IN YOUR AREA. Which I'm sure he's already done anyway...  I don't think bar owners come to the KJ seriously asking them how to run their business... THere's more to that question.. So to answer your question..

NO,  as entertainer, it's NOT up to you to understand how a bar owner should run his bar...  It's up to you to optimize YOUR job only, and stay out've other peoples business..  That's honestly how I feel,  UNLESS this is family business, the owner is your brother, father, best friend etc.... You are just the entertainment... don't try saving the whole bar... you can't... Bring in people to hear you, and sing.... That's the best you can and should do....Entertainment is often the scapegoat for poor managing incidently... What this means is that the owner doesn't look to you in most cases for honest managing advice,  they would assume do away with you than make administrative changes that you suggest....

Just how it is.... If he's asking you about "THe bar end", I suspect he's preparing to tell you he can no longer afford you...OR he'd like you to birddog a few other bar owners, and take the time to ask them, how they do something.... You can do some footwork for him... but you really need to speak with other comparable type clubs/restaurants/lounges in your immediate area.... Ask those owners.... SOmetimes this type info is free, and people are happy to help... As an entertainer for years,  I don't know what I'd do if *I* were the bar owner... I can't save the world....It's over my head..

Ask Bar owners, and bar managers what they do... possible ramifications, etc.. taking into consideration size, location, age group, and ALL factors...area socio-economic aspects

(I was a corporate manangement consultant btw), not in the food service industry however.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Wow Steven!! You have quite a thick line drawn between you and the bar owner!!  It reminds me of my years of h*ll in the corporate world....  (Not in the food service industry)

Why wouldn't the bar owner/manager ask the opinion of the entertainment/employee/bartender/waitstaff???  After all, we spend chunks of time directly with the patrons and see what is going on with more frequency (at least in our experience) than the bar owner.  After all, the result we all desire is to make customers happy and make money doing it.


Thankfully the bar owners we work for don't think we are complete dolts.  Only one bar we work for is a national restaurant/bar and THEY don't treat us like some robot...  Our bar owners/managers/bartenders/waitstaff feel it's best to work WITH each other.  Perhaps because we come in with the attitude that we are all working together and know that the actions of any one of us can directly affect the opinion of the customer of all of us..  
Susie

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Susie,  It's just something I learned from a VERY staunch conservative upbringing I suppose... Respecting boundaries especially in the business world.  I'm not talking about bar owners I've known for 30 years, who I'm social buddies with... I'm not talking about immediate family in the bar business either...

 I'm saying that in general, A bar owner ISN'T going to be asking his entertainer about things such as charging for water and soda, something's off there.. If he has THAT little knowledge of how to run his business, there's something VERY wrong.... I don't understand why entertainment would be concerned about "Charging for water and soda", and asking such questions in here, not realizing that that's really not a black/white issue, and depends on so many other things too, why is the entertainer asking US a specific bar management question that can't be answered without knowing what his setting and surrounding area is ?  While it's not a wrong question, it's one I don't think can be answered by "Entertainment", it's totally NON-related.. It's an administrative issue, sometimes you do give water and soda, other times you do not !  The answer is REALLY that simple, It's up to the business to decide based on EVERYTHING going on.. How can a businessman in the food and restaurant business, not know this ?

Honestly,  Assume you are a bar owner, who can pay out a few hundred dollars a night (I assume, might be wrong) for entertainment alone....  Would you be asking your DJ/KJ/Pianist about whether you should charge for soft drinks ?  I'd be quite suspicious of such a question coming my way from an owner... If people are that informal now, and things are that way... It's new to me... There were always stricter deliniations when I was in business, and lines that weren't crossed.... While bar owners in my day, weren't always the most "honorable" and "Communicative" people, they ALL knew what they could charge for, and what they couldn't... that's business 101...

Something is strange here...

Just my feeling..  The bar owner is asking the KJ about charging for soda and water ????      Why ???  also why is the KJ asking in an international karaoke site about a situation that depends so much on more intricate factors ?  These aren't basic questions with simple cut and dry answers...  

I guess I never worked a bar so tiny, that the bar owner had so few contacts, that he asked me as his entertainment such a basic question such as "What should I charge for" ?   Assuming the OP knows this area of business, why is HE asking in an international Karaoke site... ?  

I guess it doesn't seem too logical to me...  No offense meant..

I don't believe bar owners (although some say they are stupid) CAN be that stupid in terms of business street sense.... and general business sense...

Now if this owner just stumbled upon a bar last week, and said, Gee.... I want to open a bar... How do I do it ?  I suppose that's possible he'd ask general questions just in passing....  Yet seldom is a business owner NOT aware of how to handle people that ask for water in a certain context, they've always learned this either from just going to bar's themselves, or being in business, or learning how other owners handle this in their past, along the way.. These aren't people that were born yesterday... If the owner has that little insight, there's just something I'm not understanding.. I guess I had more confidence in the ability of most that had the ability to set up their own business, that's NOT an easy thing to do...by time he's set up, he knows these things..

Heck, I wish I knew more bar owners that were this suggestible or naive... I'd be selling them bridges, and getting $400 a night  :shock:

I don't believe the bar owner doesn't know this answer.

THere IS no cut and dry answer,  In business you give something, to get something in return... What you must give, and HOW MUCH is subjective... If the bar owner doesn't know this... *I'm* VERY confused.. If his bar isn't already a huge liability, I'd be offering him a few thousand to buy it..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I understand what you are saying...  From your business experience there were levels of competence and interaction and very distinct lines drawn between those levels.  That is not really the case in most/many of the bars I've worked in.  Although I too have had that business experience; probably not to the level you attained but I was in management.

I think it does make sense to talk to your entertainment/bartenders/waitstaff for input of any kind.  We happen to know our customers, after all we spend 4 or more hours a week (minimally) with them having a good time so it's entirely possible that we may have some good ideas.  I don't think Pablo was suggesting that a bar owner is going to turn over everything from the pricing to the key to the front door....

As entertainers/waitstaff/bartenders we must be friendly, engaging and attentive to our customer's wants, needs and desires.  I think this qualifies us, to a certain extent, to hazard a guess as to what might happen if changes were made in the bar that will affect the customer.

Just my thought, no offense intended either,
Susie

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You do it in the shower,
you do it in the car,
Ccome do it with us,
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[scroll]Just because I have a short attention span doesn't mean...... [/scroll]

No I understand Suzie,  No offense taken or meant...

This is just something unheard of to me.  If it's possible a businessman can survive with such little business ability these days... I should start considering going back into business myself, but like I said,  this wasn't an area of business *I* have experience in with the exception of ""Entertaining",  I never met a bar owner that was this naive in my day however. Is the bar owner asking Pablo this question, or is Pablo taking it on himself making an assumption that the bar owner is asking him about "Water and soda drinkers" ?

I guess I agree with Tim 100% here...bottomline



I don't think the bar owner is really asking pablo the answer to this specific question.  I think there's more to this...

Just a strong hunch....

If I wanted to know this answer,  I'd walk into three local & COMPARABLE bars I'm familiar with, either where I live, or in a neighboring town with a similar demographic makeup.... and personally ask the owners, and bartenders....

"How do you handle your water and soda drinkers" ?   "What conditions might you charge or not charge"....

VOILA...  Just that easy !

How would my answer as an entertainer on the internet regarding what an unknown remote bar type does, in an unknown location; be of any help to the owner of the bar Pable KJ's at ?  I suppose this is the nature of my confusion.. The resourceful way to take care of this,  is ask those that know locally !  Pablo doesn't know, hence, it's the bar owners business.



Have you asked bars in your specific location what they do ? Why they do it ? When, How ?  That would be first nature to me. Has the bar owner you work for done this ?  Why not ?   Why do you think there's a simple yes/no answer to this ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I don't think he said the bar owner asked him, although I wouldn't find it unusual if he did... .... that's where you and I disagree  I have seen this topic before, somewhere, so it's not an isolated question.

I think, as food for thought, he redid the words to a song to fit karaoke and used one of those lines to start this topic.  Not a bad way to get input, particularly if you are new to the forum.

I think it would be an intelligent thing for business person to do... ask the people in the trenches.  However I can relate to your opinions as I have family members who think the same.  There is a line you do not cross when you are in a certain position.  I have tried all my life to resist that tendency but alas, it's in my blood....  

Susie

_________________
You do it in the shower,
you do it in the car,
Ccome do it with us,
and be a star!!!!

Karaoke with Full House Entertainment

[scroll]Just because I have a short attention span doesn't mean...... [/scroll]