Karaoke Forums

Didn't want to hijack the other two threads which were not discussing legalities.

Some SC tracks are no longer available on disc or as download from venuevj (as karaoke channel tracks) but they are available as 'instrumental only' from amazon either under the Sound Choice label (don't do downloads my ar$e) or the Stingray label.

Some other tracks don't seem to have been made as karaoke (yet) but are available as instrumental. (KaraokeVersion, iBackTracks)

Some artists actually have instrumental 'karaoke' versions of their tracks available on amazon and iTunes (without the graphics file)

By purchasing these tracks the artists are properly compensated. I have made CDG files to go with a handful of these, along with CDG files to go with vocal removed or even to sing-along with original tracks when there is no karaoke version.

I know I'm not the only one who does this and I know that the 'sync' licensing is probably the only real issue here. Oh and possibly lyric republishing.

Could Sound Choice have any leg to stand on if they audited me, after all, the sync license infringement has nothing to do with them. The actual music has all been bought and paid for from legal sources.

I am not distributing these CDG files (although I'm sure collectively we could all benefit from doing this - just the cdg file, not the mp3 part - we'd get songs that have been requested and the manufacturers and even artists would get their $$ from the music purchased separately by each user to go with the CDG file)

Interestingly, selling or distributing just the CDG file would only involve lyric republishing as there would be no 'synced' music at that point. Also, AFAIK, you can publish lyrics by paying the requisite fees and the artists cannot withhold licensing like they do with karaoke sync. (I may be wrong on this one)

So, yeah, anyway that's it! Fire away on your discussion, avoid name calling, state only your opinion and don't PM me asking for my CDG files that I have made 'for educational purposes only'!!

- Jonn

In my experience it is somewhat hard to do a good job of syncing the lyrics to a instrumental only version, even if you know the song pretty well. It is a lot harder than just singing along to the backing track alone at least for me.

It is much easier to get With/Without vocals versions of the same song and sync the .cdg file to the vocals version, then rename the .cdg file so it assoicates to the version without vocals.

This cant be done except when the versions are identical, as even a half second off on the lyrics is noticeable, and different versions of the same song are identical length.

Technically if you go down this path this means you have to buy the with vocals and without vocals of version of the same cover song (from whatever source).

Yep, I always buy both the with and without lyrics versions. Occasionally I have to tweak the file using Goldwave. I make sure the files are the same musically, with no extra bridges etc and can then adjust the tempo and silence at the beginning if need be. All this can easily add 30+ minutes. Once I've found the lyrics online I listen though the track and tweak the words which are invariably slightly wrong. For the most recent songs I have been using the overwrite method of lyric display with some skillfully placed clear screen codes.

One of my favorite files I made about 4 years ago - Chris Moyles' Stanta, a parody of Stan by Eminem. I had to tweak the instrumental file to remove a bridge so that it would match the radio edit. I also made a great title screen featuring a cartoon santa and cartoon Eminem. Always goes down well for Christmas.

One of the nice things about karaoke version was on Lady Antebellum's Need You Now. I was able to create female only, male only and full duet versions, something I wish all manufacturers would include on their discs with duets. Of course now I generally use the CB version so my unofficial version cost me $3 plus an hour of my time and was only used once or twice.

- Jonn

All information given and tracks created as described above were 'for educational purposes only'!

Nice post !!!

Sort of a mini hijack but a response to the SC customs no longer being available--Kurt Slep has said they are working on bringing the customs with their songs back. He estimated 3 months but said it could be longer as it is being done by their affiliate and so is not entirely in their hands.

I bought both the backing track and the cover track of Journey's Mother Father and synced the lyrics using the cover track and then replacing the cover track after syncing with the background track. I fully expect to have to pull that track from my list and hard drive even though the original artist has been paid twice for the product.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

I do this all the time. If you have Karaoke Home Producer or the like, it isn't that difficult. Lyrics are easy to find on the net, and once you get used to setting up a production it really only takes a half-hour from start to finish to produce a track.

There are a number of tunes that are out of print that you can find at Amazon. I have produced about 20 of them for myself. I'd still buy the custom disk if I could -- I had bought about 90 tracks from SoundChoice on custom disks -- but you do what you can.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

The downloads are still only for home use, not clubs - and without lyrics.

The leg they would have to stand on would be unfair competition as in manufacturing a karaoke track since you are creating karaoke tracks with lyric syncs, plus they might be able to get you for actually using their recording for your track - Nu-Tech was busted big time in the early 90's for using Pioneer & SC tracks for their music and just putting their own words or video in place of the other.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

The difference there is that they were re-distributing it. If you just use it yourself, that does not apply.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Lon,

I see what you are saying, although there is a difference between Nutech unlawfully duplicating the Sound Choice music and selling it vs me actually buying it and using it how I see fit in my show. I would venture that my use is no different than any club dj playing music they have purchased from iTunes or amazon.mp3.

As for unfair competition I think that would be a stretch since I am not competing with them to sell a karaoke product in the same way that they are not hosting their own shows.

And to go back to the sync license, when you think about it, the mp3+g file is not technically synced but two separate files that are just played at the same time If they are sold together they could be considered a 'package' and therefore synced, however they 'could' be sold separately negating the license requirement!

If any of these songs were (still) available from Sound Choice on disc or venuevj as downloads I'd use them (damn that Gem series, going to negate all of my hard work and necessitate a large purchase!)

- Jonn


On the non SC front I have nice 'educational only' versions of Jizz In My Pants and Dick In A Box now to go with I'm On A Boat.

They could probably claim unfair as you are creating a karaoke track with graphics that they cannot. Doesn't matter - everyone justifies it to themselves to make it work for them - legal or not, if it was used in your show & one of the SC audit people came in and heard the track used was a SC with non-SC graphics, that would just be a whole can of worms you would have just opened on yourself.
Yeah and I seriously doubt the 'educational' factor would hold up in court, a commercial club/bar/etc is not a classroom.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Maybe a person could theoretically get around the "club/bar/etc is not a classroom" by calling it "learning to sing karaoke" . Not likely anyone from anywhere is going to take the time to go to 10,000 karaoke shows and hope to snag one or two that are not using "legal" tracks.

It wouldn't run afoul of the current litigation, as there is no SC logo.

All of this is conjecture anyway -- there is no case law to decide anything. The idea that there is law that you can't play digital tracks at a DJ or karaoke show is ridiculous. It is simply not established, and with ASCAP/BMI collecting license fees for public music play such as radio there is a significant presumption that such play is defacto legal.

This is what I hate about all these piracy threads, as again we have managed to turn this into a legal-fest. Everyone is simply stating their opinion. There is no established law, yet people talk like there is.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Well it seems he was asking about legality as he stated he didn't want to hijack a thread that was not discussing the legality.
Again doesn't really matter, right/wrong, legal/illegal, anyone is going to justify in their minds to do it one way or the other - for how long depends on whether they actually get caught.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

In the case of the only real lawsuits we have seen so far, he is fine. He isn't showing the Sound Choice logo, he isn't mentioning trying to skate out of ASCAP/BMI, and he isn't selling massive collections of copied tracks. If you aren't doing those things, you are essentially safe at this point from what I can see. I know of no other types of lawsuits in this area.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Yep, I was getting input on the legality of it. I know we're going to differ on opinions but in English for there to be 'unfair competition' there has to to be 'competition'. In making my own cdg file for a given piece of music, someone else would also have to be doing something substantially similar.

Could SC try and sue? Maybe, although I'd like to think they were happy for the $1.98 sale of the music and let this slide.

Could the publisher sue for the reproduction of the lyrics, possibly but unlikely.

Could the publisher / artist sue for sync rights, possibly, but then they'd have to sue anyone who displayed anything on a screen at the same time as their music was being played (think bar with tvs on and jukebox music playing).

It comes down to common sense... I have some, and I would hope that all these companies and the people they represent would too. I know that is not always the case and that's the line we all walk. Now, let me get around to jailbreaking my iPhone again... wait that might be against the DMCA. Ahh, there's that (lack of) common sense thing again.

I still reckon there's a business plan in publishing song lyrics one song at a time in a convenient timed, highlighted digital display format. Maybe someone else can make instrumental tracks that just happen to match up too!

On a final piracy note I just dropped $20(incl shipping) for an old PHM disc with 'Fake It' by Seether on it, just to stop this guy bringing his jump drive to the show for someone else to sing it. All evidence your honor of my good moral character!

-Jonn

I have made a couple of tracs like this. However it was with ORGINAL LYRICS I COMPOSED MYSELF and then on NON-KARAOKE instrumental tracs, mostly blues and jazz songs. Used one of those Karaoke Producer programs where you type in the words and then sync them to the lyrics.

FOR MY OWN PRIVATE USE ONLY. NOT FOR DISTRUTION OR ANY KIND OF COMERCIAL USE.

However, I have thought about taking them out and trying them out at a Karaoke bar just to see how well they would go over--again for non-commercial personal use.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

If they are your own compositions that you made into a karaoke version, you can do and play them how you deem fit. I know a few bands I got turned on to creating their own karaoke tracks of their originals so the singer can practice on nights off & so they can guage response on some songs they are testing the waters before actual live performances.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!