Karaoke Forums

I just watched a fellow DJS "Karaoke Classroom" video from The Mobile Beat DJ Expo last month and the co-founder of Sound Choice was STATING that THERE ARE CURRENTLY ZERO LEGAL KARAOKE DOWNLOAD SITES in the United States that are supported bt ANY karaoke manufacturer. Tricerasoft and others are based out of Canada but content used in the US is NOT legal.

Did anyone attend the Mobile Beat '09 Expo in vegas and is there any truth to this as far as anyone knows? I watched the video twice and it sounds contradictory to what is regularly posted here. Just thought i'd ask. Aloha. J.R.

Got a link to the video? I would be interested in watching it as well.

Not even sure where to start with this one. First I'd say go to you local police or sheriff's department. Tell them they cannot enforce a federal law. When they are done laughing, ask them if they need a warrant to seize any item in plain view in a public and/or public access place. Now anything in offices in cabinets, etc is verboten and a warrant would be required. They will thank you for putting a little sunshine into their day.

Now whether they will enforce what's coming down the pipes is a whole other matter.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

Do you honestly believe they can just seize whatever they want if it's in "plain view"?
Really?
BTW, you state "in a public and/or public access place". Most venues are NOT public or public access. What they are is private businesses with an "invitation to the public". Not the same thing at all as public. Now if you're playing in a public park, on the street, or any other place that's TRULY public, that might be a different thing.

Diafel if that were the case one could deal drugs in a bar openly or be in there with say a stolen Van Gogh do you actually think the cops inside wouldn't be able to seize the the said items without a warrant. C'mon get real. I've seized things in bars without warrants and it stood because it was in plain view. Now anything not in plain view required a warrant.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

First of all, the question was initially whether a law enformcement officer could DEMAND that you "open your cd case" and allow them to "search" through the case without a warrant? Maybe in Canada that's permissable, but thank god in the US it's NOT! As for local law enforcement getting involved, I seriously doubt they would even bother to listen to the complaint, since most probably the only evidence available to them "without a search warrant", would be merely here say.


In the US we have a legal term, "probable cause", that I'm sure would apply here.

No LEO can demand you open your case in most case (there are a few instances where bags can be searched on demand). There are procedure but it was a poorly asked question.

A LEO would wait til you open your case (to see if they appear to be original or copies and that's not hard to check in most cases) or start using your laptop (re:format shifting), if they decided or an Attorney General had ordered a crackdown under the Copyright Act..

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

PErhaps you can seize clearly illegal items, but certainly NOT something that's not clearly illegal, which a computer isn't.
If it was that simple and that easy, don't you think there would be a whole lot more "seizures" going on?
I think you are the one who needs to get real.
If you or anyone, cop or otherwise walked into my venue and took my computer without a warrant, I would sue and WIN. Then, if there WAS anything illegal on it, it would be inadmissable due to a little something called "unlawful seizure". Ever heard of it?
Apparently not.

sounds like fear mongering Joe, sorry guy. I know most of the cops where I play, and I just don't see them bothering. I mean, there's like REAL crime going on, drugs, fights etc in the area... why on God's green earth would the cops intrude on a law abiding place where everyone is having fun??

Unless you had been directly observed downloading something illegal, or caught through an online bug, and a formal complaint was made by an interested 3rd party you simply will not be subject to random search and seizure!! Period, the end.

In any regard, they cops would most likely show up at your house with an order to appear in court, not at your venue.

_________________
Good music, good friends, howling good times!

EXACTLY!
And in Canada, it's NOT permissible to demand a search, no matter what timberlea says. He likes to think he knows the law because he was apparently once an MP.
I guess that makes him an expert in all areas of the law.

We also have "probable cause" here. Though worded a little differently, it's essentially the same thing.
Hearsay is NOT probable cause.
The scenario of someone coming into a venue and demanding to look through my CD books or computer simply wouldn't happen. If it did, lawsuits would abound and thousands in damages would be paid.

Oh there's nowhere where a seach can be demanded? I can give you two places where you can be subjected to a search. ANY airport going into the airside and ANY military base. Now if you don't want to be searched, you don't get in.

And in Canada it's called reasonable and probable grounds.

As I said it probably won't happen but the law is there. In Canada transfer shifts are allowed if your AVLA fees are paid. Unfortunately, music with graphics are excluded.

http://www.avla2007.ca/index.php/licensing/dj/show/faq

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

Well if you are a format-shifting computer user, and happen to be in the first few hundred that get popped before the furor starts, then that's unlucky. Until then, I wouldn't worry much.

And looks like the OP has succeeded in getting this topic stirred up with a nothing first post. He do hate computers.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Well my karaoke music is hidden inside my hard drive which is hidden beneath my laptop and above my transmitter. The lyrics are a mirage.

Ummm no, read again. I didn't say that at all. What I said was that they can't walk into a private business and just do a search or demand to search your computer and / CD books. It was a response to your incorrect statement saying that they could.
Please pay attention to what I say and don't try to twist and change what I've said.

I was wondering how long it would take you to dredge this one up again.
It's truly getting old.
I will disagree with your statement and let the other people here know that it doesn't specifically mention karaoke as being covered and is therefore undefined. As such no law exists regarding karaoke specifically, ergo format shifting is, at the very least, not illegal.
From your link:
"Can AVLA give me a license to copy karaoke music?

No. AVLA's members generally do not own the rights to karaoke music (pre-recorded music with the vocals removed). We suggest that you contact the company that produced the original karaoke track directly for authorization. "

All it says it that THEY don't cover the licensing of it. So who does?
Again, you prove absolutely NOTHING with that link other than to prove that what I've said is correct. Karaoke is not covered.

In the UK a few years ago we had "Undercover Agents" from Sunfly going to gigs and checking for copied discs,..but nothing for years,especially since the rise of hard drive music. The BPI arent interested as long as the venue has a Performance licence,tho technically ,as with DJ's,one should be able to provide some form of reciept for each track

Diafel are you telling me that if a police officer see you looking at say kiddie porn on your laptop in a bar, that officer isn't going to arrest you and seize your laptop right there and then? One would have to be an absolute idiot not to observe and know that a host is using a computer at a karaoke show.

Read the Criminal Code and Case Law again. If it's in plain sight it's fair game. If someone is operating for example a drug trafficking operation out of his or her store and had product in plain sight, no waarant is needed to seize it. They would require a warrant for the product that is in an office or backroom, etc, unless they were invited into those places.

Further if you invite the police into your home and they see, in plain site, drugs, stolen goods, etc, they can seize it right then and there. For any further search they would be required to get a warrant.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

That in itself is NOT a criminal offense, regardless of which side of the "format shifting" issue you are on! Today you can purchase LEGAL computer formatted karaoke files, complete with legal licensing from a number of LEGAL sources.

The fact is even the Karaoke producers, Sound Choice and Chartbuster have both admitted that computer based Karaoke is the thing of the future, and both have publicly stated that they will not pursue anyone "format shifting" on a one-to-one basis, so what are we debating here????

Timberlea. I urge to plead READ my posts, sit awhile and DIGEST them. Apparently you either aren't comprehending what I'm saying or you are ignoring it completely.
Let me try one last time.
What I said was that an officer cannot just demand to examine you computer WITHOUT CAUSE. I believe I stated very clearly, in a previous post:

Meaning, that just because a computer is used at a show doesn't necessarily mean an officer can sieze it because it *MIGHT* be illegal. He has to OBSERVE something illegal going on in order to seize without a warrant. Even then, they usually get a warrant to cover their butts.
Computer karaoke is NOT illegal!

We are NOT talking drugs here, which are clearly illegal. We are talking karaoke. Argue all you want. There is NO (count ZERO) case law regarding karaoke in Canada. I challenge you to find one! Karaoke in and of itself is NOT illegal, nor is format shifting or using computer karaoke.
Argue till the cows come home, timberlea. Try and twist my words to suit whatever point it is you're trying to make, but it won't work.
Maybe you're trying to prove you know the law?
I believe that what you stated earlier is that an officer could walk in to pretty much any venue and sieze your computer, just because its sitting there in plain view. On that, you are wrong, wrong, WRONG!
They have to have probable cause to do so and just using a computer for karaoke does not fill that requirement. They would have to OBSERVE something CLEARLY illegal going on.
Apparently there's a reason you're no longer an MP.
Let me quote an old saying:
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth a remove all doubt.

Don't know how it is in your neck of the woods, but here a disc based host can either be using originals or backup copies legally. The only problem would be multi-site use which is strictly illegal. If you are a single op there are no difficulties.

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Great article, thought I'd share:

http://www.imaginelaw.com/lawyer-attorney-1196173.html

_________________
Good music, good friends, howling good times!